omg @linkspooky look what you did, you’re such a romadere that Anon thinks I was fighting with you about your previous meta ;_;
Nah, for real, Spooky-chan was just slightly making fun of me earlier because I think cloning is actually a thing somewhere in the TG plot and she finds that funny because I really like this subject (like, a lot). :))
Don’t worry though Anon, we’re never fighting, she just likes teasing me. I think that makes her cute. Sometimes.
I personally never considered Uta and Itori could be Washuus (but I’ve read some posts about it from people who did) but it’s true I thought it was possible that they came from the Garden.
However, now that we know the Sunlit Garden is mainly the result of Tsuneyoshi’s harem (I am wondering about Hsiao though since she isn’t Japanese), I just am not so sure anymore that they were from the Garden, which complicates every theory about them, haha.
About Itori though, I just don’t see the suspicious scenes on the calendar that you’re talking about (she appeared on two days if I remember correctly)? But in any case, yeah, I really like the theory that she was a breeder because of things she said about hybrids…
…which is what we were just explained about Tsuneyoshi’s harem when you think about it (besides the fact that Tsuneyoshi does have a lot of hybrid children, even if they don’t live very long).
So maybe she was supposed to be a womb too, like Rize, but she also escaped? The OEG!Itori theory comes from the fact we only ever saw one of her kakugans in ch34, so that’s why I think the breeder/womb!Itori theory does seem more likely at this point!
Besides the breeder!Itori theory though, I also have another possibility in mind for Uta’s origins (and maybe even Itori’s, should she not be a breeder):
Ghoulification is the process so far known as turning humans into OEGs and I don’t know what the CCG did that wasso “evil”that Kanou betrayed them (to do his own ghoulification experiments) but back to Uta, the possibility exists that he is a OEG, so maybe he is the result of one of the CCG’s ghoulification experiments (that were “so evil” that the twins’ father tried to double cross the CCG and Kanou betrayed them).
That would make sense when you think about it:
we know he is apparently super strong (enough so that he was leading one of the deadliest wards when he was below 20 years old + he doesn’t use his kagune when fighting, if he really has one),
I mentioned the possibility he could be a OEG, which would explain why he would tattoo his eyes in the first place.
We know joining the Clowns’ gang and being so interested in Kaneki has to have a link with his own objectives, which are, like the rest of him, completely mysterious
And there is this scene about when the twins’ parents were killed…
This is the ghoul who killed them on V/the Washuus’ orders, and that’s what Uta looked like when he was younger…
So, ahem, maybe V/the Washuus used Uta (after an experiment of the ghoulification process) to kill the Yasuhisa parents since he was really unstable when he was younger.
On top of all that, there is all the weird stuff he can say, like in ch111, when Yomo asks him “how did you become so strong” and he goes “I don’t know about that”.
TL;DR:
About Itori: for now my main theory about her is that she was (supposed to be?) a breeder, so she probably was a part of the Garden at some point if that’s the case.
in that case, the theory that she could be a OEG is wrong indeed.
if she was a breeder/womb, that makes the crack theory that she could be disguising as Iyo (Matsuri’s wife) more likely.
About Uta: for now my main theory about him is that he underwent the (according to Kanou) “evil” ghoulification process at the hands of the CCG turning him into a OEG
in that case, he was probably the ghoul V/the Washuus used to kill Yasuhisa Nanao and his wife
he might have escaped and joined the 4th ward after killing them.
There you go, sorry for the long answer, I hope it makes sense! Please remember, these could change with new manga content.
Thanks for passing by and have a nice weekend Anon! 🙂
Look above, Anon. 🙂
If I remember correctly, it’s my very first (serious) theory about the backstories of Uta and Itori and it’s rather old, but I believe most of it still makes sense! It goes with this
Of course, this isn’t a full comparison since Zeke clearly has had strong daddy issues for a while when real!Ciel’s motive might be tied more directly to his brother, but I found the slight resemblance interesting.
About zombie!real!Ciel though, yes I agree and it’s something I and several others have mentioned before. When you look at bizarre dolls in general, even if we don’t know whether real!Ciel was brought back by UT or not, well…
they always had violence and obsessionas common points.
It might be because UT said that BDs tended to seek what they lacked, or it might simply be his method of using the “episodes”
within the cinematic records
(yearning for the future: in real!Ciel’s case => “staying with my little brother”, making real!Ciel a more perfect version of Derrick and Agares), but my personal opinion is that the whole process of bringing the dead back to “life” is so unnatural anyway that it’s bound to never work perfectly.
The other explanation where real!Ciel is concerned could be that…
his time with the cult 4 years ago and him being sacrificed were such traumatizing events that he became crazy while on the brink of death and it’s something that stayed even when he was brought back (because let’s be honest here, our!Ciel fares much better than he did 4 years ago thanks to going back to a life where he had caring servants, loving family and friends, even if he tried to push all that away).
Also about the twin, again I agree that if the RCMT is correct, then…
the massacre of the entire household was unplanned. However, it’s just my opinion but considering his weird reaction in this scene…
…I know it’s absolutely horrible (though @dorkshadows will surely like it), but my current take on the RCMT is that
maybe Vincent and Rachel were the only targets in real!Ciel’s initial plan,
(hence why I find there might be a resemblance with Zeke Jaeger in the first place)
or maybe real!Ciel took his “ally”’s words for it that they had a solution to his problem and when he found their parents dead, he realized a little too late what that solution was (which is similar to your idea that he went with the flow and took the ring).
Maybe that’s why there is such a strong focus on real!Ciel taking the ring with barely a reaction about their parents’ death and the ring representing his wish to “start over together”. Maybe for the year and a half after this scene…
…he couldn’t hide how bitter he was to have to become Earl Phantomhive when our!Ciel would become a toymaker and leave for London, which is what the mastermind used against him.
So, when December 14th came and if the RCMT is correct, real!Ciel at least muzzled the dog because he knew someone was coming to do something. The question now is, did he count on the plan leading to his parents’ death or did he just realize too late what the “plan” to help his wish was? At this point it’s hard to say, even if @thedarkestcrow rightfully pointed out to me that the first option is maybe too extreme since real!Ciel didn’t hate his family.
Sorry for the long post, it’s just one possibility and my opinion, so it could be 100% off.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Anon and have a lovely day too! ❤
Hi Anon! Ah, well, in my opinion, the thing to keep in mind about the RCMT is not to make shortcuts so, in real!Ciel’s case, making a bad decision + being manipulated =/= not loving your family.
As I explained before, I don’t know yet if we’re supposed to think that real!Ciel had a rather pathological attachment & love towards his little brother…
but I think it’s not a mistake to consider the idea and, even in that case, it wouldn’t mean that real!Ciel hated his family, just that he loved his brother way more than anyone else and couldn’t stand the idea of them being separated.
Also, just saying but…
as @akumadeenglish explained here, this scene is another weird hint to add to this theory because of how real!Ciel emphasized the idea of them together as possibly “just the two of us”, meaning there is no inclusion of Lizzie or anyone else from their remaining family.
Again, the idea of real!Ciel being slightly obsessed with his little brother doesn’t necessarily mean that he wanted everyone else to die (if anything, remember the side story where he was very worried about Rachel’s health and spent quality time cooking with his dad). However, it’s possibly what allowed the mastermind behind 4 years ago to manipulate him and what led to the annihilation of the Phantomhive household.
I once compared the Phantomhive twins to the Liebert twins from Urasawa Naoki’s Monster, not that I want to expand on this, but just to give you another example that the trope of one twin going obsessed with their sibling exists and might be where Sensei is going with the attack on December 14th.
Finally, please keep in mind that…
one and a half year passed between the moment real!Ciel cried in front of his parents about our!Ciel wanting to become a toymaker in London and the attack on December 14th. So, despite smiling and saying “fine”, we don’t know for sure how the twin dealt with the bitterness that “he had to become Vincent’s successor” while our!Ciel was free to leave for London:
Did he gradually become more pissed at his parents for not taking his side or not stopping our!Ciel? Impossible to say, but an idea to keep in mind just in case.
Was he just manipulated because someone whispered empty promises to him and he believed them because he was barely ten years old? Could be that too, but again, impossible to know for sure.
I hope it makes a little more sense. 🙂 Just watch out for shortcuts Anon: at this point we just don’t know if the RCMT implies that real!Ciel was obsessed about staying with his brother or if it was more innocent than that. In any case, even if the RCMT is true, we at least can guess that the whole household wasn’t supposed to be annihilated as I explained in the previous post.
I personally think that real!Ciel could have had a disturbing attachment to his brother and that he possibly changed during that one year and a half, which is why Sensei precisely didn’t expand on it, but anyway everything remains to be confirmed so take it all with a grain of salt.
Hi Anon! I just meant it in the light of what @linkspooky was describing in her post. To quote her:
Every character that has sought strength as a part of their character arc has regretted it later. I think it’s important to remember that in those scenes the characters don’t accomplish what they wanted through physical strength. […]
Characters like Mutsuki, Urie and Kaneki who seek strength as a means of self improvement never succeed.
That’s why I said I enjoyed that fight, because Mutsuki previously won against strong ghouls like Seidou (because Seidou at the time represented toxic masculinity and thus received a good kick in the jewels), when he supposedly is stronger than Yomo, and yet Mutsuki + Aura couldn’t take Yomo down in the 24th ward. :))
Besides that, I don’t have any particular additional thoughts, Yomo’s idea to use electricity near water being very clever in my opinion and I totally loved that part.
That’s what I meant, I hope it’s clearer that way!
Hi Anon! Nah, I just read a quick summary + a few parts but I haven’t read it entirely. :)) I definitely should and will probably, but for now it will have to wait a little. :33
Thanks for letting me know about it though, knowing how much I like Monster, that’s very kind of you! ^_^
Graduate of Teihou University’s Faculty of Medicine
Chief researcher at the GFG in Germany
Medical coroner at the CCG
Former professor from Kanou General Hospital
Born into a family of medical professionals, Kanou’s father was the third generation of practicing physicians. Aiming to become a doctor just like his father, he enrolled in the Faculty of Medicine at Teihou University, and graduated with excellent grades.
In his university days, Kanou was a member of the Ghoul Research Society.
After Kanou graduated he went to Germany, and joined the GFG (Ghoul Forschung Gesellschaft) (Ghoul Research Association). He worked for three years under the Adamman* Laboratory, and his research was focused on RC cell differentation, and the creation of complex structures by RC cells.
He then returned to Japan, and went to work for the CCG. As a doctor, Kanou was involved in the extraction of kakuhou and the practical application of these extracted kakuhou into quinques.
During his time there, Kanou was invited to the Sunlit Society, a research group that was under the secret jurisdiction of the Washuus. He conducted certain research involving ghouls. After, he left the bureau at the same time he resigned from that research group.
After leaving the bureau, he took over Kanou General Hospital. He continued his independent research until the day he met Furuta Nimura.
* I don’t know if Adamman (Adammahn, Adam Mahn?) is the correct spelling, but the kana is アダムマン.
Please let me know if there are any corrections I need to make.
Hi Anon, thanks for reading! Haha, do you mean when he was the Witch’s servant?
More than being dressed as a Clown, it’s the little resemblance to Ganbo, a Clown from the auction arc, that always struck me:
The whole “Witch’s servant” is why I’m not considering that Hide is completely on his own actually, especially since he would have needed help escaping the Washuus for years anyway. The question that remains though is “who is the witch”, since this play was always a good indicator of TG’s plot.
For a long time, Eto was thought to be the one who had this role and I agree that it’s a good possibility (I mean, Scarecrow went to Rushima probably not undetected, there is the book that was sent to Haise in ch31.5 that could come from either Hide or Eto), but I could never dismiss the idea that it might also be someone else, since we don’t know for sure, hence this kind of theories.
The gist of it all is that Hide probably doesn’t really belong to a group in particular: it’s possible that he associated himself with different characters (like the “witch”) or organizations throughout the story just to reach his goals, just like Kanou did.
Hi Anon! Ah, actually, it’s something I think we’re bound to get an answer for once we go back to present time in the story and Lizzie finally reappears.
We know real!Ciel is violent (his attack against Soma and Agni proves it) and it seems that his childhood obsession about “staying with his brother forever” is as strong as ever, which might be the result of being brought back by UT’s “episode” method (whether or not UT is somehow partially involved in all of this)…
because whenever real!Ciel was envisioning his future as a child, as we know it always strongly focused on “staying together with his little brother”:
So it’s hard to really predict anything about what real!Ciel might do or say because, by making him attack Soma and Agni, Sensei introduced a very antagonistic character who can behave unpredictably.
Personally though, I’m suspecting that our!Ciel is the most important thing to real!Ciel right now, especially if he was brought back using UT’s “episode” method, because I suspect that real!Ciel’s episodes (yearning for a future) focused a lot more on his brother than on his future wedding to Lizzie.
However, I do think that Lizzie is a very important indicator to how much of an antagonist real!Ciel is going to turn out to be.
After what happened with Agni and despite what we know of the horrible circumstances of his death, if Sensei decides that real!Ciel is partially redeemable, then it’s going to be shown through real!Ciel never hurting Lizzie (should she decide to go against the blue sect at some point).
On the contrary if real!Ciel decides that Lizzie is getting in the way for one reason or another at some point, then him hurting her will sign another tough end for him, because Lizzie gave up a lot to take care of him ever since August (+ you just… don’t hurt Lizzie in general, not even Seb gets a free pass with our!Ciel if he does that and let’s not mention the Midfords).
TL;DR I don’t know if real!Ciel still holds Lizzie as dear as he did during childhood. The answer will depend on how much of antagonist he is going to turn out to be and will be measured by what his reaction will be if things don’t go the way he wants them to.
Hi Anon and yeah, it’s possible! I mean, Seb showed up because of two reasons:
because Ciel turned his back on God and called for him
because he was paid enough (real!Ciel’s soul) to cross and be summoned
So considering that the twins went through the same horror during that one month….
…I think that Seb would have showed up if real!Ciel had turned his back on God and called for him too, after our!Ciel had been sacrificed first and Seb had eaten his degraded soul as the fee for crossing and accepting to be summoned.
So you see, not so silly. 😉 Thank you for passing by and wishing you a lovely day too! 😀
Hi! Ohhh, I had forgotten about that, thanks Anon, but actually I’m not surprised at all that Hide plays Go (I’m not sure that Matsuri playing shogi is related to any of this though, since he’s less mysterious than Hide, but it does attest to his intelligence too). :))
Of course, there is literally 0 hint that Hide and Uta ever played chess…
…but considering @kingkishou‘s theory about what happened in the sewers before V14 being way more significant than we could have initially thought, I’m not trusting either Hide nor Uta, because they’re way too shady and mysterious as of right now.
And even if somehow it turns out that Hide and Uta were playing chess together (if just because Kaneki’s mask and Eto’s book were sent at the same time in ch31.5, which could allude to Hide and Uta having a few plans in common), it doesn’t even automatically mean that Hide belongs with the Clowns.
Speaking of “recruitment” now (even if again, Hide might not be a Clown at all), Spooky-chan likes to say that I play a lot with clown conspiracy theories but…
by now, there is a possibility that Uta is the Nagaraj (or has a strong connection to him) and Furuta said something about the Nagaraj “sharing his life force”…
so I wonder if several blond kids with apparently no parent but a connection to the 24th ward might not be a hint to some kind of link, as I proposed here.
So maybe Hide comes from the 24th ward
(as in, maybe all those blond kids were somehow born from the Nagaraj’s kakuja which would be what Furuta meant, even if I have no real idea as to how it’d be possible) and it’s not that he was recruited, but rather that maybe, like Roma, Itori mentored him for a while when he escaped the 24th ward (which would explain why he knows how to collect and use information).
After all, I always wondered about that scene…
…because, aside from Donato in Cochlea, all the other Clowns (including Furuta) were listening to her answering “what happened to Kaneki”, so who provided that information about the CCG in the first place? I mean it’s not like Hide wasn’t by Marude’s side until the Anteiku raid arc.
It’s just a theory though, nothing confirmed at all and maybe I’m just reading wayyy too much into it, so please take it all with a grain of salt. :3
Have a nice weekend Anon!
Hi! I never mind anyone sharing their thoughts Anon. :))
However, even if there are definitely more chances for you to be right than me, I can’t be sure for the moment, because the 24th ward was destroyed after Dragoneki appeared. So even if Touka and co most likely stayed around where their old base was, how would
Hide
have found them since he wasn’t a part of the operation?
And even going with your idea and assuming that Dragoneki hadn’t annihilated almost everyone down there to protect Touka (since we know a part of Juuzou’s men escaped)…
…are you sure that Hide would have asked anyone about where exactly the operation took place, when everyone was panicking and no one back at the CCG seemed to have known about his plan to contact ghouls?
That’s why I’m just not sure, even if you might be right and anyway, it’s also true that Hide could have simply guessed on his own that Touka and co would have been somewhere close to where the old 24th ward used to be. :))
…and that’s why I don’t think he’s on his own, whether it is with Eto and/or one/several Clowns and/or other characters that he shares or shared a plan.
Thanks for your insight though, I really appreciate it! 🙂 Have a nice weekend :3
midnight-in-town 