And maybe she had to be more serious to counterbalance her brother?
Thing is, Vincent probably had a serious side, and (who knows) maybe Frances has a fun-loving side?
I actually believe this has a lot to do with her being a woman. In the Victorian times, for a woman to become as respected as Frances is, she had to be at least twice as tough as the toughest of men.
I think Cloudia was well aware of that and had her trained as a swordswoman from an early age on, much like Frances had Lizzy trained later on.
I can imagine her spending long days training as hard as she could, possibly learning from Tanaka who has been said to be strict as well, while Vincent half-arsed his training and became more interested in intellectual endeavours like reading and playing chess.
On another note, the death of her brother and his family may have made her even more serious and cautious of the people around her.
100% agreeing with this, you don’t become a strong and respected woman if you half ass things when men
(in such a time era) were almost always the ones with responsibility, and that’s on top of being raised by Claudia, a woman with an important duty linking her to the Queen.
Besides, Frances lost her mom when she was barely a teenager, then she had to watch her brother shouldering the Watchdog duty, before she lost him too and as we could see in the manga…
She probably feels really conficted about submitting her own child to such a life when
she knows well that this life destroyed almost her entire family.
As for Vincent, call it whatever you want but I’m pretty sure his air-headed/IDGAD behavior is his own way of coping with all that he lived through.
(That’s why Tanaka and Frances gotta step up into the plot and get the role they deserve for what they represent. Ciel is almost entirely alone and all he has left of people who know this life and who can help him are only his aunt and his old butler, so if they don’t end up having a rather significant role anytime soon, that will really be a lost opportunity for good characterizations and I’ll be really mad).
I mean yeah, UT definitely was talking about Vincent and Claudia here (seeing as they were the Watchdog before Ciel was), most certainly, but OH GOD YOU’RE RIGHT Ciel and Frances are so very alike on that point indeed!
Really, I think I legit never thought of Frances with what UT said and how she’s someone of Ciel’s family who’s not like Vincent and Claudia as well, though I’m thinking Alexis is probably responsible for a lot of change in her (seeing as Vincent was their mother’s heir and couldn’t escape his duty no matter what while she had a chance by marrying out of the family).
This is just superb though, because I totally think Ciel and Frances are really similar when it comes to their personalities, I mean look…
And Ciel even said once…
And that’s literally what he’s doing right now…
This is making me so emotional for some reason, since he only has the Midfords left when it comes to his family and to have someone like Frances, who’s like him and also who can understand him because she was raised as a Phantomhive… Well, that’s what I want for him, more people he can rely on.
This is even more interesting as a dynamic since Seb said…
Aaaah so great, this totally made my day, thanks for pointing this out Anon!
TL;DR Yes UT was most certainly talking about Claudia and Vincent in that scene, as they were the Watchdog before Ciel, noting a clear difference because Ciel is selfess. And thanks to you now I was just reminded that indeed Frances seems to favor being selfless as well.
I doubt that means Vincent and Claudia were awful people, it’s just that, as they aged up while doing this job, they saw a lot of terrible things and that might have lessened their faith in humanity to the point they couldn’t care anymore about people they didn’t know.
Thanks for your thoughts Anon, really, and I hope it answered the question you might have had.
You guys keep doing this weird theories because “Ciel doesn’t know this and that” when actually this whole bunch is so ignorant.
How can they don’t know their parent’s ages? or the fact Alexis was a fag? Like they’re teenagers, Edward is practically an adult, Ciel at least has the excuse he was a child when his parents died. Does this people never sits to talk?? Does Alexis has never cheered on Edward for being such a dutifull fag (like him) in front of Lizzy or something?
¿¿¿¿¿¿¿¿???????
The only person in this clueless family with common sense is Frances, i swear.
Without her they’d all die.
I love coming over uninvited whenever people talk about Frances, because I’m always like
Especially in the Weston arc I mean GUYZ LOOK…
she and Tanaka are the only ones taking no shit from Seb and Ciel cheating and lying to an entire stadium + the referee and the players.
@funtom-cafe please tell me you think the Weston arc is great now that you’re rereading it because that arc had all the cast together watching Ciel cheating during a cricket game without batting an eyelash, while Frances was like “I don’t wanna hear nothing about any bullshit blue miracle, nephew and brother-version”.
what are you talking about??? you’re always invited??? shh.
Also Frances Midford is really awesome yes you’re right I mean I love her.
I’m actually loving the Weston Arc for the boys, but that’s more likely because they were the reason why I am rereading it. But the cricket tournament is so fun for that.
I just, Edward’s monologue about talent (poor baby, he works so hard), Lawrence and Herman’s friendship (brotp all the way, by the way), Ciel being so sneaky and pretending to be this All Work guy (though he actually needed to work). Bard explaning the rules of crickets (so cute, he’s an sport man), Lau and Soma! Lau speaking to himself he may convert to Soma’s religion! Edgar being fabulous, ALEISTER AND EDGAR i just, uncle and nephew relationship ftw. Alexis being an absolute Vindee shipper and Frances following Sebastian like…. it has such an amazing moments I’m fangirling so hard.
And Frances is the best. And yes, everyone was just unsurprised about Ciel. I love this moment where Finny, Mey-Rin and Lizzy are scared because everyone is chanting “That’s not cricket” for one of Ciel’s strategies but Bard is like: his true colors are showing, with this “I’m so done” chibi-face. lmao.
The thing is… the generations aren’t communicating effectively. The kids aren’t curious enough to ask their parents/aunts/uncles questions, at least not the important ones…. Why TF hasn’t the earl asked Aunt Frances and Uncle Alexis about his parents, grandparents, etc? The earl says his dad died before he could pass on much info about the family. Why does he act like no one else could have pertinent information?
But that’s often how it goes. Wouldn’t have a series this long if people communicated effectively…. lol
I think you’re raising a good point actually. While it’s very unnerving that Ciel doesn’t realize he could ask Frances and Tanaka about Undertaker and Claudia, I think the fact generations apparently aren’t communicating, as you were saying, is probably because it never was the thing of Vincent and Frances.
(rambling about the Phantomhive family under read more, feel free to ignore)
I mean, when Ciel learns about UT having Claudia’s locket, he says:
and like ??? When Vincent died, Ciel was 10 and I doubt that as a child he never was curious about who his grandparents were, but the fact he knows just her name probably means it wasn’t a subject Vincent (or Frances for that matter) liked to talk about.
Obviously that’s understandable, Claudia died at 36 years old when Vincent was 15 and Frances even younger, and I doubt her death was natural too, so I could see Vincent still having trouble talking about his mother even years after which would explain why Ciel only knows her name (subverted if she actually was an awful person but I doubt it). But frankly, if everytime young!Ciel asked Vincent answered something like “I don’t really want to talk about it ¯_(ツ)_/¯
”, maybe that’s why even now Ciel doesn’t really get too curious about his family (or rather maybe that’s why he doesn’t think of asking Tanaka and Frances, because he was used to have his curiosity on this subject dismissed as a child).
It’s probably the same for Liz and Ed. I don’t doubt Alexis is a real teddy bear who wouldn’t have any secret for his children, but that’s probably not Frances’ case and if she never indulged in the normal curiosity children can shower their parents with, maybe that’s why Ed and Liz just aren’t used to being curious about their parents’ past, which is why they just assume things on their own and never bother to check the accuracy. (It also shows in how Lizzie just doesn’t walk to Ciel and tells him directly “get ready to answer my questions about that month you were gone” it’s just not a thing in this family, they weren’t raised like that so she has no idea how to mention subjects one clearly doesn’t want to speak about, besides her other issues with him)
Honestly, the comic relief excuse in Yana-sensei’s head for this scene is 10 times more probable than all my rambling, but meh, I still have that scene in mind about smol!Lizzie crying and being like “but why do I have to learn how to be strong?” (because she just wanted to be the girl Ciel thought she was) and Frances basically answering “you just have to”, that gives me big feels every time.
This thing is, this scene wasn’t about “women-are-strong-so-be-strong-as-well-my-daughter” or any other feminist idea Frances could have confused her young girl with, this was more about “I don’t care about rules, society, other women and whatever Ciel thinks, you gotta be strong because that’s the only way to survive as a Phantomhive” probably because she had the example of her mother’s death in mind.
…This is why I want to know who Claudia P is, because good or bad as a mother, strong or weak, she factors in the lives of her grandchildren and in how they were raised somehow, even if they don’t know anything besides her name.
I’m pretty sure they all knew and I’m also pretty sure that Ciel and Lizzie were engaged for a precise reason and that’s also this same reason that pushed Frances to train Elizabeth so hard.
Ch103 introduced the possibility of Ciel having this special lineage…
and seeing Lizzie’s particular strength (I’ve written a post about it here), I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out she shared the same lineage through their common grandparents.
Also…
This panel always was suspicious to me because it’s like Frances is implying that Elizabeth has to train for both their safety (probably because Ciel already proved he is way weaker than her) hence that the engagement serves a definite purpose: Ciel’s safety maybe?
If Ciel is weak and Lizzie isn’t, and if their parents were aware of that “special lineage”, then that could be why they betrothed one to the other. It could be simply a matter of “keeping it in the family” (both the knowledge about the Watchdog duty and the lineage) or it could be because Ciel was too weak on his own while Lizzie proved to be strong but there is a precise reason in my opinion.
Ciel just never knew because he was too young and sure he didn’t want a strong wife.
Sorry if the spaces are missing and it’s hard to read. Wrote this on my phone…
@midnight-in-town ( Once again, thank you, your majesty, for sharing your wisdom with me~♡)
Right, I momentarily forgot about that. So he knew. Yet it seems somehow off.
Frances obviously doesn’t like to think about Lizzy getting into danger, I wonder how Vincent felt about that. It’s not everyday you appoint a child with the duty of protecting someone else. Like, these days Sebastian is protecting Ciel in the style of a bodyguard. So why make Lizzy do the job when he could get a professional? That just feels awfully fishy to me.
Vincent’s whole character is a mystery right now and the more appearances he makes the more uneasy he makes me.
Also, if they really only were betrothed for Ciel’s safety Vincent must have known that something would happen to him and considering all his recent appearances he might even have expected the fire. Or he is just acting high and mighty…
Yet that would explain why it had to be Lizzy. She is important. Her talent to keep them bith alife, sure, but maybe Lizzy’s real job is to “emotionally” protect Ciel. Less with a sword then with her mere existance, being what could perhaps even turn out to be mire important then revenge.
But how could Vincent know any of this? How much did he really know?
Back to the original question: If Vincent knew then WHAT did he know? And for the love of God, how much did he tell or keep from Frances?
highlycrazy (please don’t call me a queen or anything, this is way too awkward and I just offer my guesses, it’s not wisdom at all >_<)
I think you’re looking for an explanation too far away from Vincent’s character. If you just consider Claudia’s character, there is a high probability that she was the Watchdog before him as well as an original Phantomhive and so that means two things:
She was a woman in charge of the entire underworld, so no need to question her strength and personality
When you look at Frances’ character, she’s far from your typical noble Victorian lady and she also has this Phantomhive aura (Weston arc) meaning that Claudia probably never really introduced the boundaries between men and women of the Victorian society to her children and raised them equally (hence why Frances knows how to fight and hunt).
Starting from there and seeing Frances’ strength, I think it’s safe to assume that Vincent never considered his sister to be inferior to him in any aspect.
Obviously, Vincent could engage a bodyguard for Ciel (like what Tanaka is to him probably) but the weight of the Watchdog duty isn’t only about physical dangers or threats, it’s about it being quite hard to cope with mentally too.
It’s a world where you can’t trust anybody and in which survival is a necessity, so his son would need to be able to protect his family and people he loved, and Ciel being physically weak aside, Vincent could have just thought that a wife prepared for this kind of life (so in other words, his sister’s daughter) would be a safer choice for his son’s future and happiness (because she would be able to support him fully).
It’s not about Vincent expecting the fire or anything like that (especially since he was probably constantly under threat as the Watchdog), since the engagement was made when both were probably very young (maybe even right after Ciel’s birth). When Ciel was born, Frances already had one son and a daughter so “by keeping it in the family”, Vincent could be sure his heir’s spouse would be emotionally and physically prepared (since it’s Frances we’re talking about). I think if he had had a daughter instead of Ciel, she and Edward would have been engaged the same way.
Vincent and Frances were of the same family and seeing Frances’ character, she never was ignorant or left out of the Watchdog’s position so uniting their two families was the best choice in Vincent’s case.
Now in case he did know about the lineage part (which means in that case that maybe UT = Cedric K Ros) then it makes everything ten times fishier, because no matter what that lineage is, it’s important enough to settle the question by an engagement. If that lineage is about strength and detection of supernatural phenomena, it could be helpful for the future Watchdog to have a wife of the similar kind, for survival purpose.
I’m thinking it made sense for Vincent and Frances to engage two of their children together because they were probably both involved equally with the watchdog’s position (as in Frances probably helped her brother in his investigation) and it turned out to be Lizzie and Ciel because Vincent got a son.
I don’t know how much Vincent could have known about the lineage part, if it’s actually true, but the only thing you have to take into consideration is that Frances and Vincent probably acted together until she married Alexis and so it made sense for the two of them (or at least for Vincent) to marry Ciel and Elizabeth, in order for the future watchdog to already have a powerful ally who would support him emotionally but also physically, in Elizabeth’s case.
That’s how I see it at least, because I consider that Frances wouldn’t have betrothed Lizzie to Ciel if she was against it, and because Lizzie and Ciel spent a lot of time together as children. 🙂
midnight-in-town 