I am shitting on Real!Ciel because of the stuff he said to Lizzie when he was 7 or so
because I definitely am not, especially when it’s easy to understand that children can’t always know better which is why sometimes they say stuff and don’t realize how hurtful it was.
That being said, you have to admit that, since this one comment was enough to trigger years of self-loathing for Lizzie, people are being slightly salty when the twin is also part of the reason why Lizzie is so miserable in the current arc…
…especially when the Campania arc had finally calmed her fears.
In my opinion though, it’s just kind of unbelievable that the twin would have said something about “strong women” being scary when his entire family was full of strong and unordinary women in the first place. I mean, I wrote before about miscommunication in the P family so it could also be related to this, but it’s too bad that Vincent didn’t find out about Lizzie starting to hate her strength because of his son’s remark and went to his son to explain him why strength was necessary in this family, the way Frances did with Lizzie.
So was this moment before the twins found out about the nature of their father’s job? Maybe, and again it’s not like you can blame him since he was a child, but seeing as Lizzie is currently spending the arc in tears, it’s not like it’s hard to be jaded about this boy either (and let’s not forget about poor Agni).
Anyway, you want to blame it all on Frances, be my guest and you wouldn’t be the first one (”she’s a terrible mother”, “she’s scary”, “it’s her fault Lizzie and Ed have self-worth issues”), but it’s not like Vincent
Alexis, Ed
and our!Ciel
ever complained on the subject. As for Lizzie, here’s what she thinks of her mama.
Maybe someone should have just taken the time to explain to the twin why learning to protect himself was important, that would have certainly spared Lizzie from hating her strength for years. I’m personally just happy that our!Ciel, who’s himself lost in inferiority complex and survivor’s guilt, found a way to undo what his brother uncounsciously did.
Have a nice day Anon!
Ahh, not really no, sorry Anon but it’s actually a different matter because the previous Anon does have a point: children can be insensitive so I agree it makes no sense to blame the twin for this…
when he was 7 or so, because the responsible party is miscommunication and no one apparently showing up to talk to him at some point, lecturing him on why this was so important and that he should be thankful to have one of the strongest professors around to teach him how to defend himself.
The reason I’m slightly jaded in my answer however is that Anon makes it sound as if the poor twin is the victim in all this when, guess what, Lizzie is the one who ended up hating herself for years and it’s definitely not Frances’ fault either. So can we not, you know, try to justify the twin’s words when Lizzie was the one who suffered? That’s all I was trying to convey.
The twin might not have known better but his words triggered a lot of unwanted consequences and, while I find it’s indeed ridiculous to blame him, I don’t want anyone to forget that there were consequences, such as Lizzie’s self-worth issues and…
…Ed probably openly “disliking” Ciel for reasons besides him being a siscon.
However that’s indeed a separate matter from the things the twin has been doing in the current arc and Anon was right to mention it.
I hope it makes more sense, because these are two different subjects. Have a nice day!
Hello again 🙂 And don’t worry, as long as it wasn’t what you meant I guess it’s fine!
I’m sorry if I sounded to be too jaded, it’s just that I’ve had to deal with what I and @dorkshadows call “twin apologism” ever since ch129, and it’s really annoying every time the subject turns up in different forms, because the twin is not an innocent little angel who’s being victimized by the fandom.
He did suffer a lot, like our!Ciel, and he died a terrible death, no one will disagree on that, but this is in no way a justification of anything bad that he did/does/will do.
Besides for a long time this flashback between real!Ciel and Lizzie was the source of a real conflict between pro and against 2CT fans, people arguing back and forth about the twins and ships, without any regard to Lizzie who should have been the only focus. But anyway, I definitely agree with you that blaming the twin for his words is ridiculous and unrelated to what he’s doing in the current arc. 🙂
As for Frances, ooh, you didn’t know? I wouldn’t say that they hate her, but she got hit pretty bad by a lot of “she’s really not a good mother” comments and the current arc isn’t helping her case, despite her children canonically looking up to her.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Thanks for passing by again Anon and have a nice day!
I am shitting on Real!Ciel because of the stuff he said to Lizzie when he was 7 or so
because I definitely am not, especially when it’s easy to understand that children can’t always know better which is why sometimes they say stuff and don’t realize how hurtful it was.
That being said, you have to admit that, since this one comment was enough to trigger years of self-loathing for Lizzie, people are being slightly salty when the twin is also part of the reason why Lizzie is so miserable in the current arc…
…especially when the Campania arc had finally calmed her fears.
In my opinion though, it’s just kind of unbelievable that the twin would have said something about “strong women” being scary when his entire family was full of strong and unordinary women in the first place. I mean, I wrote before about miscommunication in the P family so it could also be related to this, but it’s too bad that Vincent didn’t find out about Lizzie starting to hate her strength because of his son’s remark and went to his son to explain him why strength was necessary in this family, the way Frances did with Lizzie.
So was this moment before the twins found out about the nature of their father’s job? Maybe, and again it’s not like you can blame him since he was a child, but seeing as Lizzie is currently spending the arc in tears, it’s not like it’s hard to be jaded about this boy either (and let’s not forget about poor Agni).
Anyway, you want to blame it all on Frances, be my guest and you wouldn’t be the first one (”she’s a terrible mother”, “she’s scary”, “it’s her fault Lizzie and Ed have self-worth issues”), but it’s not like Vincent
Alexis, Ed
and our!Ciel
ever complained on the subject. As for Lizzie, here’s what she thinks of her mama.
Maybe someone should have just taken the time to explain to the twin why learning to protect himself was important, that would have certainly spared Lizzie from hating her strength for years. I’m personally just happy that our!Ciel, who’s himself lost in inferiority complex and survivor’s guilt, found a way to undo what his brother uncounsciously did.
SAME. I always imagined a very supportive—but snarky—relationship between the two. With Vincent as the lackadaisical but oh-so-cool older brother with the humorous, eloquent wit and Frances as the stern, sharp-tongued younger sister who’s one of the very, VERY few people to have Vincent’s trust and confidence.
And they wouldn’t be sickeningly saccharine like real!Ciel and our!Ciel in the chapter 131 flashback. Oh no.
They’d be sharp, combative, sarcastic, somewhat bitchy with a mocking edge but also fiercely, ferociously, and undeniably loyal to one another. I don’t think Frances would’ve agreed to the betrothal between real!Ciel and Lizzy if she didn’t trust and love her brother because let’s face, ain’t NO ONE gonna tell Frances Midford (née Phantomhive) what to do. Not even Vincent. Especially not Vincent lmao
Plus Vincent himself admits that the women of the Phantomhive line are very strong-willed and probably couldn’t be strong armed into agreeing to something they didn’t want. (Ten bucks says Vincent had to offer up the idea to Frances and wait for his baby sis to give the okay or else he’d find himself with a very bad case of head removed from shoulders LOL—kidding. In actuality Frances would’ve probably been ticked, stormed over to Phantomhive Manor going “what the actual fuck Vincent” and our daddy watchdog would give some glib, superficially charming answer before Frances got annoyed and Vincent would have to resort to honesty and be all “Lizzy is the only person in this world I trust with my son’s life” and Frances would be touched because Vincent and trust don’t exactly mix, but because she’s tough as nails, she’d just give him a nod and sigh “well, you’re not wrong” and voila. Game. Set. Match.)
I personally headcanon Vincent and Frances’s relationship as an incredibly adroit and savvy one—outsiders and observers would always need to be on their toes if they wanted to keep up with these quick-witted siblings.
(Psst, I also wrote a Frances & Vincent sibling fic titled It’s quiet uptown if you’re interested in reading it—the subject matter is rather grim but the Frances/Vincent dynamic is pretty much what I’ve written here XD)
LISTEN THO’ ANON, I really like your SW analogy but I’ve got so much to say on the subject that, for your own sake, you should probably never send me an ask like this.
I mean, look:
These two are the last two Phantomhives left (because I’m certainly not counting the twin who’s becoming a villain and who’s dead anyway) and they’re similar on many things, one of these things being losing close family because of the Watchdog duty.
Ciel lost his parents and his brother when he was 10 years old, even if we don’t know yet whether the murders were triggered by an investigation in particular or if the issue was directly with Vincent being the watchdog
And guess what? Frances lost her mom who was the Watchdog at the time (I strongly suspect it was also a murder but not canon for now) when she was barely older than Ciel was and then, she was way older but she lost her brother (and his family) too.
So Frances lacking a true purpose so far in the series (or so it seems), when she is the person most suited to understand how our!Ciel must feel, is really something I’ll always be salty about if it doesn’t change before long, especially when the current arc is forcing our Ciel to face his trauma (which hopefully means #development at the end).
But that’s not even all there is to it Anon, because Seb went there 10 years ago or so, you know? He literally said the foreshadowing words that I need Yana to completely illustrate in the story as soon as possible:
Because, guess what? Baby pub did trip.
During the curry arc, when he more or less sheltered Agni for his crimes
During the circus arc, when he burnt those children, which led to him lying to the Queen about his report
but the Queen found out and organized a murder party as a punishment (@ thanks Grey)
During the green witch arc, because he made sure that Sieglinde wouldn’t give or produce for the Queen anything like the SuLIN gas
and the current arc might or not [x] partially be the result of Victoria seeing through his lies about the SuLIN gas in ch108 and being fed up with him not being a very obedient doggy
But Seb said all this in ch14, which is to say before the curry arc even started, which means that he knew that Ciel would surely fuck up at some point because, despite acting like he’s the best chessmaster of the entire cast, the simple truth is… that he’s not. For now, Victoria is better than him, UT is better than him and I dare say that there might be more ready to strike (Lau?), while our!Ciel is left zoning out because he’s simply not good enough yet.
That’s why Seb said:
Because out of the last two Phantomhives left, Frances is more trained and accustomed to the Watchdog’s duty than Ciel currently is. It’s not a criticism towards Ciel, but just a fact since Frances is older and thus already went through what Ciel should have learnt with Vincent about the Watchdog’s duty, had he not died.
Frances is strong, has been for a long time and she was probably trained to be from early on, just like it happened with Lizzie a generation later. Frances also lost her mom when she was young but she probably supported her brother for several years anyway, until she got married, had kids and started training her children as well as her brother’s:
So there you have it, Seb said:
However…
Claudia, Vincent and Rachel died
the twin is dead and probably a villain, and anyway he probably knows less about the Watchdog’s duty than our!Ciel himself
Madam Red turned out to be insane and is dead
Soma knows nothing about the Watchdog duty, Sieglinde is too new
Ed is not supposed to be involved with the Phantomhive family and Lizzie is too young
Dee? Unfortunately too tsundere and awkward with advice -> see ch131 + he’s in Germany anyway
Lau? LMAO no way + MIA for almost two arcs
Finally, UT is too desperate and not likely to be the best person to learn from when it comes to the Watchdog duty, seeing as he is not fond of it
…which leaves only Frances (even if I could also add Tanaka since he’s been with the Phantomhive family for a long time) to learn from when it comes to how to survive as the Watchdog.
I know, I know, “Ciel wants revenge and he’s not going to have any future blah blah”, yeah yeah I agree, but really besides the Jack the ripper arc, I can’t say that the Queen seems very appreciative of his work (3 mistakes in one year with two that she caught on for sure)? So it sounds a tad ridiculous that, even though he’s helped by a demon, our!Ciel would have barely lasted 4 years when Vincent was the Watchdog for almost 20 years.
That’s how it goes, the Watchdogs have to learn the ways of the game (it’s like a different kind of chess and it’s not innate), otherwise they have a high risk of ending up dead (and we all know that, without Seb, Ciel would have died countless times already).
So you mentioned a Jedi, but Anon, Frances is not a random Jedi, she’s the master Yoda of Kuro, because she outlived her mom and her brother (even if, I know, she wasn’t the Watchdog directly; look at Rachel and Ann tho -> dead), but also mostly because she knows what it means and what it is like to be a Phantomhive.
Therefore I’m looking for #plot where Frances’ character is concerned. Unless it’s denied in canon, I will always strongly believe that she’s keeping an eye on her nephew through reports that Tanaka might send, as well as through allowing Lizzie to visit Ciel often so that he won’t be all alone with work or his quest for revenge.
I will also refuse to believe that she’s 100% condemned to be dealt with through plot convenience only, unless it unfortunately turns out to be canon every time. So for the current arc, I’m still hoping there is a reason (?) why she seems uninvolved with finding an explanation to Lizzie’s disappearance while still apparently stopping Ed from “helping” Ciel to get Lizzie back.
TL;DR were the words Seb said to Frances in ch14 just words or were they foreshadowing of Frances having a role to play towards Ciel and the plot? Well, that’s something I’ve been meaning to find out for over 4 years already.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Sorry for rambling, but asking me about Frances and Ciel generally makes me talkative, haha. I hope it made sense. 🙂 Have a nice day!
Fairly interesting question Anon. 🙂 However, the answer is ‘no’, I don’t think it’s too late for the simple reason that we know nothing about Frances’ character.
To explain simply, I was pondering about this in my tags, but we don’t know how Frances feels about the Watchdog duty. Obviously, she supports Ciel but how does she feel about her brother’s death and her mother’s death? Is she like UT…
….disliking Queen Victoria but (unlike him) not saying a word about it? And like UT, is she still mourning them? Frankly, I can’t be sure but it’s definitely possible.
Also, we can’t be sure of what she might know about her brother’s murder. Look at Tanaka for example:
…There were hints that he refused to say anything about the culprit(s), probably to spare Ciel any vendetta thoughts, even if, unbeknownst to him, it’s clearly what Ciel is after. But if he knows anything, he could have told Frances or she could have her own idea as to who the culprit is.
Finally, who knows if she herself isn’t looking for revenge? It doesn’t seem like her, I’ll give you that, but she is a Phantomhive at heart so really, who knows if losing her brother 20 years after losing her mother, because of the same thing, didn’t trigger angry thoughts for a vendetta within her? Especially when Ciel could still be in danger but mostly because her daughter is supposed to marry into the Phantomhive family. So unlike Ciel, it wouldn’t exactly be a revenge for the sake of revenge, but rather for the sake of protecting the next Phantomhive generation (or maybe both).
Finally, this is how Frances was described in ch14:
But sometimes I wonder if she really “values strength and purity”. I mean I’m sure that she does to some extent but what I mean by that is that she married a good man who’s kind of the opposite to the Queen’s Watchdog in what he’s supposed to represent:
So, as his wife, it makes sense that she’s living up to the Midford name but still, the Phantomhive family was called “cursed” more than once so, again, who knows if Frances totally discarded the Phantomhive part in her when she took the Midford name. I personally don’t think she did, because of Lizzie and because I believe she’s keeping an eye on Ciel, but that is yet something else that I’m hoping Yana will write about.
TL;DR how this arc is going to end is just too uncertain for now to give you a more precise answer, but I personally think there are plenty of ways to get Frances to be more involved in the plot, if just because we know nothing about her despite her being the only other Phantomhive left. So it’s all on Yana.
I hope it answers your question, have a nice day Anon!
LISTEN THO’ ANON, I really like your SW analogy but I’ve got so much to say on the subject that, for your own sake, you should probably never send me an ask like this.
I mean, look:
These two are the last two Phantomhives left (because I’m certainly not counting the twin who’s becoming a villain and who’s dead anyway) and they’re similar on many things, one of these things being losing close family because of the Watchdog duty.
Ciel lost his parents and his brother when he was 10 years old, even if we don’t know yet whether the murders were triggered by an investigation in particular or if the issue was directly with Vincent being the watchdog
And guess what? Frances lost her mom who was the Watchdog at the time (I strongly suspect it was also a murder but not canon for now) when she was barely older than Ciel was and then, she was way older but she lost her brother (and his family) too.
So Frances lacking a true purpose so far in the series (or so it seems), when she is the person most suited to understand how our!Ciel must feel, is really something I’ll always be salty about if it doesn’t change before long, especially when the current arc is forcing our Ciel to face his trauma (which hopefully means #development at the end).
But that’s not even all there is to it Anon, because Seb went there 10 years ago or so, you know? He literally said the foreshadowing words that I need Yana to completely illustrate in the story as soon as possible:
Because, guess what? Baby pup did trip.
During the curry arc, when he more or less sheltered Agni for his crimes
During the circus arc, when he burnt those children, which led to him lying to the Queen about his report
but the Queen found out and organized a murder party as a punishment (@ thanks Grey)
During the green witch arc, because he made sure that Sieglinde wouldn’t give or produce for the Queen anything like the SuLIN gas
and the current arc might or not [x] partially be the result of Victoria seeing through his lies about the SuLIN gas in ch108 and being fed up with him not being a very obedient doggy
But Seb said all this in ch14, which is to say before the curry arc even started, which means that he knew that Ciel would surely fuck up at some point because, despite acting like he’s the best chessmaster of the entire cast, the simple truth is… that he’s not. For now, Victoria is better than him, UT is better than him and I dare say that there might be more ready to strike (Lau?), while our!Ciel is left zoning out because he’s simply not good enough yet.
That’s why Seb said:
Because out of the last two Phantomhives left, Frances is more trained and accustomed to the Watchdog’s duty than Ciel currently is. It’s not a criticism towards Ciel, but just a fact since Frances is older and thus already went through what Ciel should have learnt with Vincent about the Watchdog’s duty, had he not died.
Frances is strong, has been for a long time and she was probably trained to be from early on, just like it happened with Lizzie a generation later. Frances also lost her mom when she was young but she probably supported her brother for several years anyway, until she got married, had kids and started training her children as well as her brother’s:
So there you have it, Seb said:
However…
Claudia, Vincent and Rachel died
the twin is dead and probably a villain, and anyway he probably knows less about the Watchdog’s duty than our!Ciel himself
Madam Red turned out to be insane and is dead
Soma knows nothing about the Watchdog duty, Sieglinde is too new
Ed is not supposed to be involved with the Phantomhive family and Lizzie is too young
Dee? Unfortunately too tsundere and awkward with advice -> see ch131 + he’s in Germany anyway
Lau? LMAO no way + MIA for almost two arcs
Finally, UT is too desperate and not likely to be the best person to learn from when it comes to the Watchdog duty, seeing as he is not fond of it
…which leaves only Frances (even if I could also add Tanaka since he’s been with the Phantomhive family for a long time) to learn from when it comes to how to survive as the Watchdog.
I know, I know, “Ciel wants revenge and he’s not going to have any future blah blah”, yeah yeah I agree, but really besides the Jack the ripper arc, I can’t say that the Queen seems very appreciative of his work (3 mistakes in one year with two that she caught on for sure)? So it sounds a tad ridiculous that, even though he’s helped by a demon, our!Ciel would have barely lasted 4 years when Vincent was the Watchdog for almost 20 years.
That’s how it goes, the Watchdogs have to learn the ways of the game (it’s like a different kind of chess and it’s not innate), otherwise they have a high risk of ending up dead (and we all know that, without Seb, Ciel would have died countless times already).
So you mentioned a Jedi, but Anon, Frances is not a random Jedi, she’s the master Yoda of Kuro, because she outlived her mom and her brother (even if, I know, she wasn’t the Watchdog directly; look at Rachel and Ann tho -> dead), but also mostly because she knows what it means and what it is like to be a Phantomhive.
Therefore I’m looking for #plot where Frances’ character is concerned. Unless it’s denied in canon, I will always strongly believe that she’s keeping an eye on her nephew through reports that Tanaka might send, as well as through allowing Lizzie to visit Ciel often so that he won’t be all alone with work or his quest for revenge.
I will also refuse to believe that she’s 100% condemned to be dealt with through plot convenience only, unless it unfortunately turns out to be canon every time. So for the current arc, I’m still hoping there is a reason (?) why she seems uninvolved with finding an explanation to Lizzie’s disappearance while still apparently stopping Ed from “helping” Ciel to get Lizzie back.
TL;DR were the words Seb said to Frances in ch14 just words or were they foreshadowing of Frances having a role to play towards Ciel and the plot? Well, that’s something I’ve been meaning to find out for over 4 years already.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
Sorry for rambling, but asking me about Frances and Ciel generally makes me talkative, haha. I hope it made sense. 🙂 Have a nice day!
Haha I hope not! I think we have enough major characters, a lot of new ones (Sieglinde, Wolfram, Ludger, Othello, Bravat, Sascha, Pit) were brought forwards in the last couple years and have yet to be used heavily. Though that is to be expected in a long-running manga, I’d still prefer to see a heavier focus being put towards the main plot but new characters tend to distract from that.
It’s also pretty late in the game! Things are getting intense (the reveal of OC’s identity, reemergence of RC, Lizzy’s leave from home, the death of Agni and subsequent shift in Soma) and that seems to indicate that we’re drawing closer to the manga’s climax, so I’m not sure there is much time for distractions.
Though in terms of positive development for OC, I’d consider it far more meaningful if the consolidation towards his self-worth came from people who already knew him, preferably people who knew his brother too… so the Midfords are a good candidate. That way, they’re showing him what he has to live for whilst knowing who he truly is/was.
However, I’m not sure any person could teach OC about the importance of life! Even if they did it’d be a bit redundant since he’s sworn his life away to a demon.
It’s nice to hope that OC could develop a more healthy world-outlook, but when you think about the situation he’s in it’s hard to not believe that he’s better off seeing things as he does. It’s probably a coping mechanism? There’s nothing he can do to escape an early death–Sebastian literally follows him around as a constant reminder too–and trying to run away/be scared/feel like he has something to live for would make it infinitely more painful.
@her-majestys-watchdog: sorry to barge in, but didn’t Seb once say that he totally saw Frances as a possible mentor figure/example to Ciel?
Obviously self-worth might not have been what Seb precisely had in mind back in ch14, but as the very last Phantomhive besides Ciel, it is quite interesting that Seb thought that Frances would have things to teach to him (especially when her role so far has been quite insignificant unfortunately ;_;).
Also this is just my personal wishful thinking but about “teaching our!Ciel about the importance of life”, I’d say that the Undertaker himself, through his devotion to Ciel’s family, makes for a good candidate for this possible part of his character development (especially since he seems to be rather keen on saving his soul from Seb)? Personally, I always found that his story overall paralleled our!Ciel’s, except that he probably found a way to see a better side to his existence (after killing himself and deserting the Shinigamis) partially thanks to Claudia Phantomhive (something our!Ciel is still lacking in his own characterization, which is the whole point of the possible “UT teaching Ciel” point).
Of course, if UT is to teach anything to our!Ciel it means he has to overcome the antagonist image that the Campania and Weston arcs glued to his character lol.
@your-lovers-and-drifters said: HA! Heck, after everything these two’ve put Lizzy through, she DESERVES everything! And can you imagine cute Watchdog Lizzy cutting down her enemies with swords decorated with ribbons and daisies and them just going “???” (And the Evil Noblemen. Like no more of this heavy, mysterious shit – she’s gonna throw tea parties and if they don’t remember to wear pink on Wednesdays then bye bitch, executioner’s block is right around the peach tree corner.)
Right!? Lizzie deserves the entire estate. And she’d be an amazing watchdog- every mission would be completed perfectly, with a side dose of cute. She’d use people underestimating her to her advantage. Doing it with a sweet smile would be even better.
LOL The Evil Nobleman rebooted XD That’s right. No more pretending to be dark and mysterious- Lizzie throws tea parties and cuts down anyway who dares defy her dress code. You respect these tea parties or you die, bitch. It’s what Claudia would have wanted.
(due to these two posts [x][x]) that Vincent was actually hoping Lizzie would be his successor when it comes to the Watchdog duty, simply because he had his mother’s example in mind that “Earl Phantomhive” and “ the Queen’s watchdog” were two titles that didn’t have to refer to the same person, even if both titles are to always remain within the Phantomhive family.
My initial explanation is 100% based on Downton Abbey, but if Claudia’s dad indeed only had Claudia as his heir, then there was no way for her, as a woman, to inherit her father’s title and his land as “Earl Phantomhive”. However, if her father was the previous watchdog, since this special title is only known amongst the underworld or the Queen’s close entourage, then surely even a woman could do it, as long as she was chosen and trained by the previous Watchdog.
Then Claudia married her father’s heir to the “Earl Phantomhive” title (a nephew, a cousin), which would be the only explanation as to why her maiden and family name were both “Phantomhive” and why Vincent inherited the Earl Phantomhive title as the following generation (like Mary Crawley from Downton Abbey and her son, from marrying Matthew Crawley).
Ahem, back to Vincent, obviously this is a cracky theory and one that’s likely to never become canon but still, he could have very well decided that Lizzie would have made a good watchdog. Why? Because she was trained to be strong…
and was certainly clever enough. Not to say that the twins were unfit to do it, they were certainly clever enough (as we’ve seen with our!Ciel) but…
…if you had the choice between a clever boy who needs the equivalent of a private militia to stay alive as he acts as the Watchdog vs an equally clever girl who can manage to stay alive on her own (and who,
as a woman, would be less suspected in general), then Vincent could have easily made up his mind and I’m sure Rachel would have agreed:
It would have been exactly like with Claudia and, as her son, that’s even why Vincent would have considered the idea: real!Ciel inhering the “Earl Phantomhive”’s title from him but Lizzie, his sister’s daughter and his son’s fiancée, being the Watchdog. Two titles, two different persons supporting each other (making Lizzie some sort of Claudia’s successor/reincarnation xD).
ANYWAY, the reason I’m adding onto this discussion is because I AGREE that these make perfect sense:
And I just wouldn’t mind at all if Tanaka or UT were to reveal at some point during this petty conflict between brothers (or later in the story) that “btw, Lady Elizabeth was totally supposed to become the Watchdog after your father anyway, so why are you even showing off so badly against each other????” and the shock is so grand for real!Ciel (with him wanting a-not-scary-and-thus-not-strong-wife and all) that he falls dead all over again xDD.
Finally, the only reason that Lizzie didn’t turn out to be the Watchdog when our!Ciel came back and became the rightful Earl Phantomhive is because Frances, after her brother’s murder, just wasn’t ready to let Lizzie take on this dangerous duty, and it gave her a good excuse to ignore her brother’s wish when our!Ciel came back, wanting to become the Watchdog for his revenge. Lizzie (who never knew about possibly being the next Watchdog) stayed as his fiancée though, because there was no way to talk her out of it.
So yeah, crack theory is a crack theory, but I like this little twist a lot because it makes for a way bigger dynamic amongst the Phantomhive family, encompassing everything from Claudia’s generation to all her grandchildren and I like this type of things. So sorry for rambling, hope you guys didn’t mind! :3
I’ve written before about the disastrous advice that Madam Red gave Lizzie.
This is a major part of what led Lizzie to believe she had to had act weak in order to be a proper fiance, but I’ve always found this advice a bit ironic. The proper lady that Madam Red described really wasn’t anything like Madam Red herself. She was smart and never appeared particularly weak.
What makes it more ironic is how her advice to Lizzie contrasts so greatly with Rachel’s advice to her. When Madam Red had felt insecure about her own look, Rachel had never told her to behave differently or to put on an act. Rachel complimented her sister and told her to have more confidence in herself.
I think this goes a lot to who Rachel and Madam Red were at heart. Madam Red was beautiful, but she had never felt particularly beautiful. It’s possible she didn’t think anyone would love her as she was, which was why her idea of the proper lady was almost precisely her opposite.
Rachel was far more confident. She knew her own weaknesses, such as her health. While she would apologize when her poor health kept her from activities, she didn’t dwell on it. Even Madam Red said that Rachel didn’t put on airs.
Basically, Rachel was more open and honest about her true self because she was confident. Madam Red lacked this confidence, so she tried to present a version of herself she thought people would like better.
It would have been better for Madam Red if she could have been more like her sister but not so much in looks. It would have better if she could have ad a bit more of Rachel’s confidence. That might have been able to keep her from going down the path that she did.
Thoughts?
Inferiority complex is a bitch… :// just saying but Rachel/Ann, our!Ciel/his twin, Ed/Lizzie, all these sibling duos showed the sad truth of one sibling feeling inferior to the other (and I kind of like how Yana tends to use this narrative, since it’s quite realistic so far).
We saw how it ended for Ann, she was so jealous, despite being so close to Rachel back when she was still alive, that when sorrow overwhelmed her she literally became mad.
Our!Ciel’s inferiority complex might or not have been only linked to being mistreated by the cult and having survivor’s guilt, but the result is that he took on his brother’s identity because it’s what he thought he had to do as his spare/extra.
Ed felt very bad about losing to his very skilled little sister initially, but you could say that at least he managed better in the way that he didn’t let himself be overwhelmed by jealousy because he knew Lizzie had done nothing wrong; so he became determined to completely revere her instead (that’s the explanation behind him being a siscon). However, that still doesn’t stop him from seeing himself as a completely plain guy with no talent when everyone else is incredibly talented in his opinion, which means he does have a pretty inferior view of himself in general…
Funnily enough, the only sibling duo that we know of that seemed to manage alright was Vincent and Frances. I doubt that Frances doesn’t feel awful for surviving where her mother and brother didn’t, but so far we didn’t have any hint that one felt inferior to the other, on the contrary they seemed to be have found quite a balance in their respective abilities.
Hello! What an interesting question 🙂 At this point, I think I can admit that I, too, wouldn’t mind a whole spineoff about either Vincent or Claudia (or both) as the Watchdog because I live for how complex these characters appear to be. Too bad we don’t see them often, as you said.
Anyway, short answer, this little story by @tothelasthoursofmylife is 100% how I see their interactions and relationship: total respect and praise of each other’s abilities, as well as a certain protectiveness towards one another, Frances definitely helping her brother when it was just the two of them after Claudia’s death.
Long answer, the relationship between the siblings is of the utmost interest to me, because of how peculiar their mother must have been and how she raised them as a result: Frances is a total badass and also raised her own daughter to be as such…
And Vincent respects these facts, because he was used to his own mother behaving that way.
I personally don’t think that the betrothal between one of Vincent’s sons and Lizzie was completely random. Maybe it was to keep the secret of who the Watchdog was within the family, but maybe it also was because Vincent knew that Frances would raise her own daughter the way Claudia raised her.
A strong wife can only help the Watchdog after all, because she would be able to take care of herself and maybe take care of him too. The fact that Frances accepted to marry Lizzie into the P family, despite knowing how dangerous it is, is also quite telling of how she wanted to be of help to her brother and his family.
Also seeing how often Lizzie pops up in the flashbacks before Vincent and Rachel’s murder, it seems the Phantomhives and the Midfords always were quite close and I think that can only be if Vincent and Frances were close themselves. It’s also understandable that they would be close in the first place, since Vincent was no older than 15 when Claudia died and so Frances was probably 13 years or old or less, so they only had each other to count on for a long time.
Finally, I don’t doubt that, just like with siblings in general, they probably had a few personality traits that made the other roll their eyes. I mean, Vincent was probably too laid back sometimes for Frances, while Frances probably might have been a bit too serious for her mischevious brother who liked to laugh so much. For example, just look at the “blue miracles” and Frances’ reaction to them:
So I really think that they were as close as they could be, because Claudia probably raised them to be able to support each other and I like to think that it went on until Frances married out of the family and had her own children. After that, Frances probably wasn’t really involved with the Watchdog duty anymore, but she trained her children and even Vincent’s sons instead.
That’s how I see it. 🙂 I hope it answers your question, have a nice day Anon!
Hey Anon 🙂 Ah, maybe some people would call it a crack theory but it seems quite logical to me, even if in the end I don’t have so many “proof” for it, so it’s a theory I’m rather serious about.
When it comes to clues though, well, first of all there is the fact that Claudia and Vincent were approximately the same age when they died and, while Claudia could have died from something like a disease or an accident, since it’s 95% certain that she was the Watchdog before Vincent, I just think it makes for enough similarities to consider that she might have been killed as well.
Then there are UT’s words…
and considering his rather unusual devotion to the Phantomhive family, I feel like “boring” could allude to the fact that he didn’t bury just one Watchdog because of murder.
Finally (and it’s my biggest clue) there is this scene from Lizzie’s flashback:
And this scene happens before Vincent got killed, so if I had to give any explanation to Frances’ sad face, while she explains to her daughter that as a future Phantomhive it’s very important that she learns how to protect herself and her loved ones, then I’d say it’s possible that at this moment Frances had in mind the example of her mother being killed because of the Watchdog duty.
As I was saying though it makes sense to me but it doesn’t have to sound convincing for you, so see if that’s your thing or not 😉
Have a nice day Anon!
Hey Anon 🙂 Well, considering the panel I was talking about just in the answer above…
I like to think that Frances apparently really loved her mom (if you go with my interpretation that she was thinking about Claudia in that scene, that is) and I’m pretty sure that was the same for Vincent.
I guess it will only be confirmed when we know more about Claudia of course, but I really don’t see why there would have been any unsolved issues between Claudia and her children.
midnight-in-town 