Well, I’ll copy-paste my own tags from here then Anon, because I find they’re pretty self-explanatory:
And also a little something else…
Listen Anon, if Frances really didn’t care about her nephews in the past or now, then…
Lizzie wouldn’t have been betrothed to them and exposed to danger till now (especially for the last 4 years),
Frances wouldn’t have shown up for Ciel’s 13th birthday and taken him hunting, so that he wouldn’t be all alone or bored on the third death anniversary of the massacre
and she wouldn’t have told Lizzie to offer him to join them for a three week vacation, which was supposed to be the Campania arc, because she found he was working a lot.
There aren’t a lot of outstanding adults in Ciel’s life, so let’s avoid dragging down the few who exist, okay? :3
Hope it makes more sense this time. Have a nice weekend.
Hello Anon! Well, considering Frances’ discussion with Vincent…
…it seems indeed that it’s best if there is a spare to the Watchdog’s heir, just in case something happens.
I wouldn’t say that it’s impossible for Frances to have been Vincent’s spare back during their childhood however, even as a woman, because…
Claudia being the Watchdog probably was a special case
in the first place, as there might have been no man to take on the title, which is why Victoria probably allowed her to take it on instead, as we debated here:
“if there were no surviving legitimate male relatives, the title would become extinct… Unless someone got a parliamentary and royal warrant to pass it on to the daughter.“
Following this logic, if Victoria had given the agreement to Claudia for the Watchdog’s duty, it doesn’t seem illogical to think that Frances was her mother’s second heir, the spare in case something happened to Vincent, the rightful heir. That’s even why she’s probably as strong as she is…
because she was trained to take on the Watchdog duty too, just in case.
Crack theory time (that I share with @aroturier): if our!Ciel hadn’t come back 4 years ago, we were wondering if the Queen wouldn’t have passed the Watchdog duty
on
to Frances (aka to the Midford family).
I hope it answers your question, have a nice day Anon!
Bringing this back because I really think that the reason people believe Frances was being harsh in ch132 is fallacious and this is bothering me.
Considering once again that Vincent’s predecessor was a woman because of special circumstances in the family, it must not have mattered to Claudia that she gave birth to a son and a daughter. That’s why she most likely raised them similarly: for their own protection but also should they both end up carrying the burden of the Watchdog duty.
So Frances saying what she said in ch 132 is not only her being worried about our!Ciel surviving as the Watchdog (and frankly she’s not wrong), but also her speaking as a first-hand witness: because the reason she’s so strong and has trained since childhood most likely is that she was Vincent’s own spare for the watchdog duty until he married and had heirs of his own.
Cue the discourse to Lizzie as well when she wanted to give up on fencing, with the example of her dead mother in mind cementing Frances’ conviction that being as strong as possible was one of the keys to surviving as a Phantomhive (and when you see Tanaka living this old as a close associate to the P family, there again I doubt Frances is wrong).
It’s a hard situation! Presuming Lizzy saw OC before Frances did, it wasn’t until AFTER Lizzy believed her fiance was suddenly alive agaim that Frances realized this wasn’t true – in fact he’s actually STILL DEAD. Lizzy was only 11 years old at the time, and would not be old or wise enough to keep OC’s secret… So what do you do?
If Frances exposed him, his reputation would be ruined and it’s possible the last heir of HER family (because Frances is a Phantomhive) would either be shunned for lying, losing his Earl status or replaced in some manner. We’re supposed to believe OC wouldn’t have been given the responsibility so easily, especially nor after lying like that. He’d likely be carted off to live with a guardian somewhere.
OC isn’t her son but I’m sure she has almost equal affection for him as compared to Lizzy, she knows it isn’t her secret to tell but also not telling could hurt people… hence why she has been angry at him all these years.
I don’t think any option is good, but I wouldn’t blame Frances for keeping the secret. Lizzy and RC had a political marriage (kinda) not a love match, so at their young age perhaps it was understandable that keeping it a secret was best. Plus, thinking RC was alive made Lizzy SO happy; how hard would it be to tell her otherwise? Tricky!
Just my opinion but additionally, I think the fact she knew very much what kind of danger her family constantly faced is maybe why she (like Tanaka) kept the secret, because they could guess that our!Ciel had his reasons after being abducted for a whole month and coming back alone + probably that he felt horrible guilt about whatever happened to real!Ciel.
real!Ciel, at 8 years old: “Strong women are scary, I’m so lucky that my future wife is weak!”
Vincent, Alexis, Edward, Tanaka, UT, Charles Grey, Charles Phipps, our!Ciel, probably Diedrich & Klaus: *look at Lizzie*
All of them:
Look I know they bicker, argue and try to pretend that they can’t stand each other, but the truth is that I just love the way their relationship unfolds when they stop pretending, especially when the moment doesn’t revolve around Lizzie.
Ed being fully supportive of Ciel as the Watchdog, Ciel praising Edward’s abilities, it’s just…
That’s also why this scene happened btw, despite how much they roast each other most of the time:
After the incident at Weston, Ed openly admitted his fears to his cousin, who’s not only younger than him but who also supposedly “doesn’t care about others” (Ed’s own words earlier in the arc, also contrasting with him telling the P4 that he finds Ciel extremely commendable, gosh why does tsundere type run in the family), because that’s how their real dynamic goes: there is no judgement or dislike, just mutual trust and respect.
From Ann’s cinematic record vs ch131: I actually love Ann’s memory more because you can read about Vincent literally saying he wanted to play with the kids (leaving the rest of his work to Tanaka lmao xDD poor Tanaka, something tells me this happened often) and you can even see Lizzie on the left panel holding her arms up and asking Vincent for a hug.
AND THIS IS SO CUTE OKAY.
Seriously I just love that Vincent was depicted to be a good dad, because tbh Ciel’s daddy issues could have given us the wrong idea sometimes. So yeah, I just love how Vincent wanted to play with his kiddos, how he kept Ciel’s tiny hand in his that one time they all went out (and met Kelvin), hardly ever letting go because Ciel was afraid of all the unknown crowd:
Even bigger kudos to Vincent for not being ashamed to convey concepts such as this (despite his job being to kill for the Queen), because that 100% suits the rather peculiar environment he was raised in…
his mother, a noble lady, who was the Queen’s Watchdog and possibly head of the family before him
the house butler, whom he most likely knew ever since his childhood and who became his and his sister’s parental figure after his mom died, probably was a Japanese ex-samurai/mercenary/warrior
…which means he never was ashamed of his family being different from what was supposedly typical of/normal for the time era and that’s amazing. And frankly, I know he has daddy issues but…
I’m really glad Ciel agrees and shares this concept too.
Ahhh, the chapter at least finally explains what we saw as plot convenience until now, which is to say “why isn’t Seb taking care of Ciel’s revenge right away?”.
Turns out Ciel wants to kill whoever the mastermind is with his own hands, after finding out why his family had to die (Ciel my boy though, Tanaka, Frances and even UT probably know why though, so don’t you think it’s time to go and ask them?)
that’s when I started thinking about deeply-rooted mommy-related issues for Vincent and Frances, probably because the way Claudia died was something they had a hard time facing and accepting (exactly like our!Ciel who can’t even refer to his parents as such after everything that he went through) and that led to the current situation we’re talking about.
I mean, frankly I can understand Ciel not knowing about a link between UT and Claudia since there is a possibility that even Frances and Vincent didn’t know, but not knowing about his whole family, about his grandmother, and thus mistakenly assuming things about his predecessors? This goes beyond just being the second son and that’s why I agree there is most likely a reason besides plot convenience.
You mentioned Tanaka too, but the same goes where he’s concerned since Claudia was probably his first master and he most likely was Vincent & Frances’ parental figure after she died:
At least UT has the excuse of not exactly being a part of this family and thus not having to explain stuff, but Vincent, Tanaka and Frances? They never told the children (Lizzie and Ed as well, most likely) probably because there is something that’s beyond ugly or sad about Claudia’s time as the Watchdog, or maybe the family in general.
It’s exactly the same explanation as to why Vincent already expected to die a few years before it happened [x][x] and I really feel for Frances who’s basically the last one with Tanaka to know all these secrets and decide if/when she should address them with her nephew (’cause I’m still kinda hoping that’s her role).
TL;DR I’d bet you whatever you want that Claudia is a big part of why Ciel is just “???” about his whole family + that Vincent’s death probably didn’t help Frances (and Tanaka) with taking the decision to address a painful subject.
I adressed this before, but basically we have a few hints indicating that Vincent and Frances were most likely close siblings, possibly because of what happened to their mom when they were still young. I mean, they bickered of course, but they wouldn’t have betrothed two of their kids together if they didn’t have a good reason to both think it was extremely important.
In other words, Ciel is ??? to this day about his own family, probably because Frances is ;_; about her brother and mother and same for Tanaka.
(As you can see it’s a subject I love and I wish we could address in canon sometimes before the century ends but I don’t wanna sound pressuring here xD)
The flashbacks I would like to see are the lighthearted ones where the Phantomhives and Midfords are having dinner together and the families have to suffer through Frances and Vincent’s incessant bickering also can someone reveal already when, why, and how they decided to get Real Ciel and Lizzy engaged? Bonus if we see more little Our!Ciel and Lizzy interactions.
(please give more screen time to my faves frannie and vincent too)
In fact, it doesn’t even matter if he’s Cedric or not, because it’s selfish of him anyway to bring some members of our!Ciel’ and Frances’ family back from the dead, when it’s for sure going to make them feel horrible if he succeeds.
Look at the twin, we don’t even know yet if UT holds any responsibility for the current arc, although it’s very possible he does, but Lizzie felt constantly miserable for at least two months already…
and it’s probably going to be our!Ciel’s turn very soon.
Let’s just say that it’s UT’s duality as a character, his devotion and selfishness completely clash, so I sure wouldn’t want to be in our!Ciel’s and Frances’ shoes either if he ever manages to bring back more than just the twin (which I hope he won’t, really).
so I’m sure she’ll manage if she’s to ever confront UT about what he’s doing.
Thanks for passing by Anon and have a nice day. 🙂
“his devotion and his selfishness completely clash” ooooh
This is about seem cracky but bear with me
It’s interesting, if we are taking the GrandpaUT theory as correct, that his “love” for his dead family is actually making things completely worse for the living AND dead. Like, if he truly loved them he’d leave them alone and let them Rest In Peace. So, it definitely seems like he’s more obsessed with having them close to him/alive, moreso than being happy.
Which, if you think, is kinda what RCiel is doing? “I’m never going to leave your side again”
I definitely think that UT’s devotion to the P family (whatever the reasons are) is making things worse in most aspects (that’s why sometimes I compare him to Kelvin), except maybe when it comes to possibly being a major help towards the contract binding our!Ciel with Seb. x)
As for real!Ciel, if you’re speaking of his current behavior (ch129, ch130) it’s most likely the way he was brought back (with the “episode” method?) that emphasized his obsessive side from childhood for me.
However I do agree that his obsessive side that we saw already in the flashback might be a family trait, I mean Ed is also rather… attached to his sister (although it’s not expressed in a similar grim way as real!Ciel with our!Ciel, at least for now) so who knows. 🙂 Real!Ciel definitely was an obsessive type of person, that much we could see from early on, so it might be something he inherited from someone in the family indeed (be it from UT if he’s the grandfather or even from his mom’s side, I mean, look at Ann -_-).
I also agree that if UT loved the people he wants to bring back, the best would be for him to let them rest in peace, without mentioning not bothering those people’s family either. That’s his problem though, he’s just… clinging because he’s selfish and desperate (and I say that as a big fan of his).
Thanks for reading!
@kajuned Sorry, I’m not sure who you meant by Anna (Ann/Red?), but yes obviously there is no guarantee at all. 🙂 (and @my-lady-no-further: it might interest you!)
All I’m saying is that the “obsessive sibling” pattern may be random or something that Yana wrote on purpose, since it seems there is one in almost every sibling pair of the family (though it’s not for the same reason/expressed the same way):
Unfortunately, we don’t know enough about Vincent & Frances’ sibling dynamic to know if Vincent was as protective of his younger sibling as his son and nephew are (it is a headcanon of mine though), but generally they seem to have managed much better so… eh. xD
Anyway, I’m definitely one to see real!Ciel’s behavior as being… possibly pathological (even from childhood, I mean), but I can understand not everyone considering the same idea and I do agree that his behavior isn’t completely similar to UT’s.
For UT, it is mainly based on probably living a complicated/tragic existence and on desperation for me (what you said)…
whereas for real!Ciel, it seems to have been latent from very early on…
…and this is why I see it as closer to the behavior Ann showed (because she didn’t simply become mad after losing her family; in the first place she could never move on from her obsession over Vincent, in my opinion).
Anyway, I guess we’ll see, but thanks for your input! 🙂
Hi Anon! And OMG, you make a great point, although I do have to say that I disagree about Vincent since personally I can’t blame him for being murdered.
In fact, he seems to have been a good dad in my opinion…
it’s just that his character remains rather mysterious and hard to read in general, but he certainly wasn’t on the same scale as the others, since he at least made sure his sons wouldn’t be left alone should something happen to him.
OHMYGOD THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE??? LIKE THIS IS PROBABLY WHY FRANCES HID HER FACE BEHIND HER FAN
Because she didn’t want her husband to remember that he had seen her once before they met in that fencing match!!
But
Lemme take this one step further ok
What if
Vincent made her sister pull a Viola Johnson (from the movie She’s the Man)??? As in he made Frances dress up as himself to take his place in the match??
Your second proposition is contradicting canon so I’m afraid this…
cannot be Frances because she’d never impersonate her brother with bangs, without speaking of even letting a stranger hug her chest. Rather this…
is obviously Frances in comparison, taking her brother’s place during his own wedding while he was off risking his life to finish a super important case for Victoria.
See the difference? It’s all about the bangs, so actually I think that Frances was this guy
because of #no-bangs + wearing fake glasses to fit in + the two siblings hugging each other out of joy.
midnight-in-town 