I admire Ann for being a lady that stood up against the idea of how a Victorian woman should but that ‘s it .I pretty much disliked the woman . I mean it’s one thing when you have a child like Lizzy favoring a twin over the other but for a grown up to play favorite between her nephews and our poor baby was aware of it .It’s just awful, I’m hoping that Frances will do better .

Hello Anon. And honestly? S a m e! Except that I don’t dislike Red, I’m really just neutral.

I do agree that she was an amazing example as a Lady in appearance: being able to stand up for her dream of becoming a doctor, for not being stereotypical as a Victorian woman (just like the whole female cast of Kuroshitsuji though), etc. Otherwise though, she was pretty pitiful because full of issues she never managed to solve, way before the twins were even born. ://

I know Ann really tried to be better and happier and it’s a series of unfortunate events in such a short period of time that eventually made her crazy, but still:

her everlasting ~~crush~~ obsession with Vincent?

Misunderstanding what her sister (who she claimed she loved and I don’t doubt that) was about and why Vincent chose her, which ultimately led to a lot jealousy?

Playing favorite between her nephews, most likely because real!Ciel acted more similar to Vincent than our!Ciel did back then?

Giving Lizzie a controversial advice?

[EDIT: I believe it’s the effect of Ann’s “advice” mixed with real!Ciel’s comment about being scared of strong women that gave Lizzie her self-confidence issues. However Ann, just like real!Ciel, obviously didn’t mean for their words to have such an impact.

So I don’t blame either of them but I think it was foolish of Ann to believe in such concepts when it didn’t apply to her, Lizzie, Frances or Rachel. This scene is Ann trying to justify why Vincent chose Rachel over her (more demure, perfect, lady-like Rachel or so she thinks), but she’s completely getting the wrong idea.

Vincent didn’t love Rachel because she was delicate and lovely: he was raised by a woman who was the Queen’s Watchdog before him and his sister is one of the strongest aristocrats in the country. The man himself told Ann that being different was a good thing. It’s Ann who misunderstood with such concepts in mind, eventually becoming jealous of Rachel.]

And finally, trying to kill her nephew and making him feel guilty about all that happened with her when he already had a lot to deal with?

Yeah, I can’t forgive her for all that stuff, even if she had terrible circumstances. The horrible circumstances is why I pity rather than dislike her (and also because our!Ciel still loves her, in spite of everything), but unfortunately, as an adult she had no right to take it out on her already traumatized nephew.

In that, I have 0 doubt that Frances already did better plenty of times (and will hopefully keep that up in the future, even if we can’t be 100% sure).

In fact, as I pointed out before, personally I think the timing of her introduction (right after Ann’s funerals and on Ciel’s birthday, taking him out hunting so that he’ll have fun) is no coincidence, in order to show how different the two women might turn out to be, where our!Ciel is concerned.

And while Ann mostly used to get involved with Ciel’s work as the Watchdog, Frances rather does simple little things to show her support:

like the hunting game for his birthday,
agreeing that he should come in vacations with them and take time off work during the Campania arc,
probably allowing Lizzie to visit him whenever so that he won’t be alone,
not saying anything about the Blue Miracle even if she knew it was all fake from the start,
maybe keeping the secret of him lying about his identity if she indeed knew, etc.

She would probably do more, but my theory is that she understands that he went through something horrible 4 years ago + that, mostly, she’s probably wary of Seb. And there is Tanaka keeping an eye on him anyway, possibly out of devotion for Claudia’s family (as he implied recently), so it works out.

And hey, speaking of which, Frances’ mom was very probably murdered when she was like 12 years old…

…we don’t know what happened to Cedric K. Ros– (her father) but I doubt it was more joyful, her older brother was murdered too and only one of her nephews came back after being abducted, but we never saw her taking it out on our!Ciel and making him more miserable.

So Red truly had 0 excuse. Maybe if she hadn’t been so very alone (or misled by Grell, because let’s be honest, that also played a part), she wouldn’t have fallen so low, but the JTR arc still happened and now she will never have a way to make amends for it. ://

These are the two main differences between her and Lizzie: kids are selfish and don’t know better, so yes, ten year old Lizzie half-unknowingly having a preference for real!Ciel is not to be put on the same level as an actual adult making a difference between her two nephews (with her favorite coincidentally being the one who acted more like the man she was obsessed with).

And secondly, Lizzie never tried to murder our!Ciel and that kinda accounts for a lot. Besides, Lizzie feels horrible about realizing that her younger self was very selfish and that’s actually huge character development when she’s only 15.

TL;DR I think Ann was a very interesting character but the story presented her as a despicable person who will never be able to make amends for what she did (and I doubt that there will ever be more than that to her, unfortunately).

That’s just a fact: it doesn’t mean we readers or our!Ciel should hate her, but when it comes to him having at least one outstanding adult figure in his life, well, that never was her. ://

However, I agree with you that this person could be Frances. If anything, in ch14 even Seb seemed to think that this idea could work out, but I guess we’ll have to see if that is what Sensei planned for her character.

Sorry for rambling, I kinda love the subject! ^^” Thanks for sharing your thoughts Anon, I hope you’ll have a nice week ahead!

midnight-in-town:

I was wondering why I was having so many “ch14″ vibes with the latest chapters and I guess now I know why. Because recently aren’t we, like, exactly there?

It’s the same as with UT’s foreshadowing words in ch35, but even better because it comes from Seb and Seb is constantly by Ciel’s side.

And do you remember what Seb also said, after he conveniently predicted that Ciel would sometimes need to “carry himself with humility” because he can be overconfident leading to him tripping up?

How interesting when more and more fans agree to the idea that Frances’ absence lately, when the rest of the family showed up, could be because she’s the only one (besides Tanaka and UT) who already knew about our!Ciel lying. :)) [x][x][x][x][x]

Additional thought is additional (and theoretical) but:

Until now I thought that this advice, also very relevant to the latest development, is something that our!Ciel heard her say to real!Ciel during a fencing lesson or something, but as it turned out, the flashback never addressed it.

Of course, maybe Sensei wrote that bubble but it’s not supposed to be meaningful on the long run, except that it’s kinda Ciel’s strategy towards getting revenge for the last 3 years, so

personally

I’d call it significant…

And that’s why I can’t help but think that maybe our!Ciel is really the one Frances said that to, possibly during a very rare fencing lesson or, who knows, during a chess game?

Frances does seem to love games as much as the other Phantomhives (see ch14 & the hunting context), so maybe she’s as good at chess as her brother and her nephews, and this would also explain her competitive side (“you’ve still got a decade to go before even thinking of winning against me”, ch14).

TL;DR still vouching for Frances having a role to play in the current arc, either towards Lizzie or our!Ciel (or both), + still vouching overall for some sort of mentor dynamic between her and our!Ciel, because there are just so many parallels (probably both the spare to their elder brothers, both lost the same family members because of the Watchdog’s duty, etc).

And Seb genuinely seems to enjoy the idea, which is even more interesting.

Listen

Everytime I’m reminded that Sensei possibly didn’t forget about ch14, I’m living.

I was wondering why I was having so many “ch14″ vibes with the latest chapters and I guess now I know why. Because recently aren’t we, like, exactly there?

It’s the same as with UT’s foreshadowing words in ch35, but even better because it comes from Seb and Seb is constantly by Ciel’s side.

And do you remember what Seb also said, after he conveniently predicted that Ciel would sometimes need to “carry himself with humility” because he can be overconfident leading to him tripping up?

How interesting when more and more fans agree to the idea that Frances’ absence lately, when the rest of the family showed up, could be because she’s the only one (besides Tanaka and UT) who already knew about our!Ciel lying. :)) [x][x][x][x][x]

Additional thought is additional (and theoretical) but:

Until now I thought that this advice, also very relevant to the latest development, is something that our!Ciel heard her say to real!Ciel during a fencing lesson or something, but as it turned out, the flashback never addressed it.

Of course, maybe Sensei wrote that bubble but it’s not supposed to be meaningful on the long run, except that it’s kinda Ciel’s strategy towards getting revenge for the last 3 years, so

personally

I’d call it significant…

And that’s why I can’t help but think that maybe our!Ciel is really the one Frances said that to, possibly during a very rare fencing lesson or, who knows, during a chess game?

Frances does seem to love games as much as the other Phantomhives (see ch14 & the hunting context), so maybe she’s as good at chess as her brother and her nephews, and this would also explain her competitive side (“you’ve still got a decade to go before even thinking of winning against me”, ch14).

TL;DR still vouching for Frances having a role to play in the current arc, either towards Lizzie or our!Ciel (or both), + still vouching overall for some sort of mentor dynamic between her and our!Ciel, because there are just so many parallels (probably both the spare to their elder brothers, both lost the same family members because of the Watchdog’s duty, etc).

And Seb genuinely seems to enjoy the idea, which is even more interesting.

Incoming Aunt/Nephew Solidarity (maybe?)

bizarre-dollhouse:

I find it interesting that Francis is the only Midford who wasn’t present at the epic Staircase Reveal™….

People have already speculated that Francis figured out the identity switch a long time ago, and I tend to lean in that direction. I’m kind of wondering if the respect she’s gained for OC over the past 4 years will manifest itself in her taking his side.

Look, Alexis is about to sit down with RC and probably be given an *ahem* slightly biased version of events. Elizabeth is already in shambles, but has pretty much abandoned OC, and Edward will most likely side with her.

Francis is mysteriously not entangled with this yet, and I doubt they would introduce her later only for her to have the same reaction as the rest of her family. I also doubt that she’ll just disappear from the story soooo….

Idk man, she was pretty harsh to OC when he was a small child, so this might be an opportunity for them to see eye to eye. Plus, OC only has 2 aunts and the other one tried to kill him, so maybe there could be some heartwarming contrast (ex. Madam Red said “you shouldn’t have ever been born” while Francis could express some sort of pride in him, y’know?).

Most of OCiel’s family is dead ~~or undead~~, so it would be nice if at least one of the four surviving members made him feel loved, and I feel like Francis would be the perfect candidate to fill that position.

^^^ agreed with all of this, besides her being harsh with him when they were kids. :))

Why? Because she called him an extra/spare? Which is who he is, especially since Yana won’t say his name, so it’s hard to refer to him differently.

As for what she said on the subject, she just meant that he’d have a hard time as the watchdog *when* he was still a very sickly child and, rather than sending him to his death should he inherit the position, she’d prefer Vincent having another option in mind.

I mean, how many times would Ciel have died without Seb in Kuro alone and not counting the day they met?

Sorry @bizarre-dollhouse xD didn’t mean to make it all super serious, but I’m a little surprised by people saying ch132 was Frances being harsh, when her words were just the consequences of seeing members of her family die because of the Watchdog’s duty (like Claudia) and wanting to avoid a sickly child going through the same thing, when simply going outside in Spring or Summer could have killed him until he was ten.

anafeloz:

If you’re confused or angry about Lizzie’s actions/feelings in this arc or in general, just understand that she was groomed. Her entire life purpose was to be “the wife” and as been raised to act and think that way. Having that changed on such a drastic level, especially at 14-15, is messing up her entire way of thinking. She was raised to mentally handle violence, but not to be anything other than Ciel’s wife

@anafeloz don’t mind me, OP, I just want to add one thing to this.

There are a lot of good posts on Lizzie going around (I’m so happy :D), but in my opinion, what you’re saying here is possibly what’s not considered by most readers who don’t get her character.

Yes, Lizzie was groomed, more so than her brother or her two cousins, and the result is her hyper-focusing about her future as “the Watchdog’s wife”, hence the confusion & the pain when she started to realize that the boy she was falling in love with was technically “not the right one”.

That’s also why years ago she was drastically affected by real!Ciel’s claim that “strong women are scary”, because her whole life revolves around becoming the Watchdog’s wife and she’s supposed to live as happily as possible with this fate.

But, and that’s what I found interesting, Lizzie was not groomed out of anything besides a desperate need for survival and that’s why it’s also so tragic. Honestly, the circumstances of the P family suck and that’s why all these kids (all of them, with this chapter focusing especially on Lizzie) have so many issues.

Like, the twins went through all that shit in the first place because Vincent was violently murdered, for a reason linked to the Watchdog’s duty.
As for Lizzie, the only reason Frances raised her to be the way she was until this arc is the result of her losing her own mom (probably murdered too) when she was a little girl and not wishing to lose her daughter the same way.

It’s fucked up, the parents aren’t even to blame (unless you really want to argue that Vincent can be held responsible for being murdered and Frances for being traumatized by her mom’s death), it’s the circumstances of this family that are.

All that to say that Lizzie’s reasons to be upset at herself (and not even at our!Ciel) are very relevant to the context of her whole life so far, as well as to the past of her family. And, personally, I think it’s amazing writing by Sensei to address this & I couldn’t be happier.

i never realized before that Mama Midford was really there to celebrate OC’s birthday w/ him and that the hunting context was just her way of making him have fun for his birthday BECAUSE HE LOST HIS FAMILY THAT VERY SAME DAY. holy shit i can’t believe i never noticed the link there. thank for making me realize i’m so moved to tears rn

i never realized before that Mama Midford was really there to celebrate OC’s birthday w/ him

and that the hunting context was just her way of making him have fun for his birthday

BECAUSE HE LOST HIS FAMILY THAT VERY SAME DAY

thank for making me realize i’m so moved to tears rn

aww you’re welcome Anon! ^3^ Have a nice day!

I really like the idea that Francis knows about OC and not tell anyone. I don’t know if you visit the fan tags but a lot of people think Francis could scare RC and it’s other reason she’s not here. I hope we know soon.

Hi Anon! Haha yes, I saw some funny posts about real!Ciel basically not really looking forward to seeing his aunt again and, even if it’s just supposed to be humor, personally I think this may not be so far-fetched. 🙂

We already know real!Ciel finds her scary after all…

and she did say to our!Ciel…

even if it turned out that Seb is the one who took that bear down. xD So she’s definitely not strong enough to beat a demon, but still, when it comes to more thoughtful games, I think her nephews possibly have got nothing on her.

There is this trope in manga, that Sensei even referred to in the past, which is about how children are influenced both by their blood as well as by who raised them: so the reason the twins are twisted boys is because Vincent was also like that + because, in our!Ciel’s case, Seb also took on his education.

It doesn’t mean that they don’t have any good sides (our!Ciel was mentioned to be kinder than most of his family several times), it’s just one way to explain why they can also act terribly and drastically.

As siblings, Vincent and Frances were brought up together (Tanaka, according to Sensei in that same post,

probably

being the one who looked after them after Claudia’s death), so since Vincent had a few twisted and evil parts, it’s easy to bet that Frances might have inherited/developed some too (especially since she possibly used to be her brother’s spare). xD

And marrying Alexis wouldn’t have erased that, at least I don’t think so [x][x]. In fact, Sensei might have even hinted at this before…

because Frances thinking she’s getting old in ch14 (~~chill bae tho’, you’re in your mid 30s~~) isn’t really about not aiming properly. Rather it’s because the thought of her daughter in danger made her way more emotional/hesitating than her younger self used to be.

My interpretation of this line might be wrong of course, but anyway being a Phantomhive is not about being physically strong like Frances is, that’s just bonus, rather this is about being cunning and ruthless.
And Vincent was, the twins are, Claudia probably was too, additionally even Tanaka and UT are, so Frances must be as well.

No way marrying into the Midford family would have erased the whole education and way of thinking she had half of her life, at least I hope not, because I am a big fan of Sensei’s characterizations and I wouldn’t want to change my mind on this. xD

Sorry for rambling Anon, it’s just to say that Frances’ absence is indeed weird and I would understand real!Ciel (or even UT) being suspicious/worried about Frances being eventually bad news, just like our!Ciel himself.

I hope this makes sense, thanks for passing by and have a nice weekend! ^3^

shieru-riji:

Oh, I just saw the theory that Frances might have known about OC being a “"fake”“ even before the reveal, and when you think about it, it…honestly makes sense? That would explain why Frances keeps telling O!C to prove himself “worthy” to be Lizzy’s husband. I mean, why would he still need to prove himself to Frances when she and Vincent themselves were the ones who betrothed them in the first place?

Idk, I’m not a theorist. I just really love this theory because it would mean Frances knew all this time, but decided to keep it a secret for O!C’s sake, possibly because she knows how O!C feels, having lost her family too. ~~And maybe because it means she’s okay with O!C marrying her daughter.~~

midnight-in-town:

Not the main reason, but still why I think Frances, like Tanaka, totally caught on Ciel’s “lie” about which twin came back 4 years ago.

Now whether Tanaka told her or she noticed on her own (since even Lizzie started to have her doubts after the Campania arc), I don’t know. xD

(For more arguments, please see @her-majestys-watchdog‘s posts [x][x])

Nothing is confirmed but…

if it turns out that Frances was indeed aware, like Tanaka, that our!Ciel was lying about his identity, then it will make me very emotional, because it will mean that Frances kept it to herself (and didn’t even tell her husband who was officially Ciel’s guardian), watching out for her nephew as she did so.

Honestly, there aren’t a lot of outstanding adults in Ciel’s life at the moment, so I damn hope that she (as a Phantomhive too) is one of them ~~and I’m still vouching for the mentor thing to happen somehow, since it seems they were both the spare to their elder brother + they lost the exact same family members because of the Watchdog duty~~.

I’ll have plenty to say after Wednesday and Kuro142 is released b u t

[original post]

@ronaldandthemachine Replying here because this got insanely long too. xD

Anyway, listen: actually, I don’t really care whether readers like Lizzie or not. 🙂

There is no character that everyone has to love and she’s no exception, so I’m not blaming anyone for not being her fan. What I can’t stand however is people criticizing her for something a male character wouldn’t or, more accurately, wasn’t criticized about, because that’s misogyny and honestly? As a girl myself, I’m allowed to think that it sucks.

As @hitsugikuro explained here, Soma thought our!Ciel was the reason Agni died and he even punched him before swearing revenge on him and like… where is the criticism then, especially when our!Ciel has nothing to do with it?

Whereas Lizzie gets called out for being hurt and confused, because he really lied and because she actually loves our!Ciel so damn much that the blue sect went as far as to use the truth against her in order to eventually hurt him:

So don’t get me wrong, I don’t wish for Soma to be attacked for what he did or said either, but it feels unfair for Lizzie to face this is at all, just because she’s considered to be an annoying little girl when she’s so much more than that.

So there is misogyny and then there are readers calling her out because they’re doubting that Lizzie will obviously side again with our!Ciel’s eventually. And that I can’t understand because, as I was trying to explain above, that’s just ignoring 27 volumes of Sensei’s writing and honestly? Well, that sucks too.

At this point people gotta realize that, if both Soma and Lizzie are hurt and confused about what’s going on, it’s all because Ciel needs to realize that unfortunately…

…as much as he may pretend to wish he were, he’s not alone in this and there are consequences to acknowledge regarding most of the decisions he took so far.

Again though, I’m definitely not hoping that a wave of criticism ever hits Ciel: the poor boy went through so much and has a lot to cope with, but this arc is about confrontation, so it’s time to get the skeletons out of the closet (literally, @ thanks UT).

Additionally about Lizzie, to get back on a few things you were saying (and because some readers seem to still misunderstand her character, which is for shame), her whole character revolving around her fiancé can indeed be seen as a flaw because it’s slightly extreme, but in that case again, context is needed:

Because training in order to be as strong as possible and survive as the Watchdog’s wife is literally her whole life. So like it or dislike it, again I don’t mind either way, but that’s the whole 15 years of her life and so that can’t be ignored when it comes to how one reads her character.

BTW, for the few who may read this and misunderstand, blaming Frances for this won’t do either, because Frances just wants her daughter not to end like her own brother and mother and for that I believe she’s extremely commendable.

I don’t think that most readers realize how much Frances must have loved her brother’s family to accept that Lizzie would marry and become a Phantomhive, having already lived through her mother’s probable murder and still going with the engagement for our!Ciel’s sake even after Vincent, too, was murdered.

So I spoke of that many times before, it’s one reason I’m so damn fond of these characters and why I can’t stop rambling, but the Phantomhive family has special circumstances whether you like or not.

I’m not saying we’re not

supposed

to see character flaws or dysfunctioning dynamics where they exist, on the contrary, but they have their own standards and they would probably do things differently if they weren’t constantly targeted by the burden of the Watchdog duty.

I mean, why do you guys think that UT went bat shit crazy on the subject?

It’s no coincidence.

Final point but “Lizzie needing to please her fiancé” used to be a thing that Ciel managed to undo with the Campania arc in my opinion, because what he told her allowed her to realize that she could defintiely be her true self with the person she loved the most and he wouldn’t push her away.

And that’s a main point as to why she’s definitely going back to him without a doubt. :))

Sorry for rambling, I think you unknowingly addressed a subject I’m fond of. xD But yeah, context matters.