What did Lizzy mean when she said « I couldn’t save you », while standing over real Ciel?

thedarkestcrow:

Well, we don’t know for certain. She could have meant that she has a different blood type than real Ciel and therefore she can’t help in providing him with the blood he seems to be needing.

Or what I could also imagine (and I actually prefer this idea) is that Lizzy means real Ciel’s state in general. If at this point real Ciel was already able to talk to Lizzy she surely noticed that he has changed.

Lizzy is clearly desperate and very sad at the moment. And it’s no wonder. She learned that our Ciel has lied to her about his identity. But she clearly cares about him very much and I think her affection to our Ciel (who she believed was real Ciel) grew even more over the past four years. But now that she knows the truth and that the twin has actually returned it makes the situation very difficult for Lizzy because she feels it’s her duty as real Ciel’s fiancée to stay by his side. But real Ciel isn’t who he used to be and Lizzy surely sees that, too. She’s aware that things can’t go back to how they used to be, especially since real Ciel doesn’t seem to have any good intentions now. So when Lizzy says that she can’t save real Ciel she might refer to him having changed like that and that Lizzy is aware that she can’t change him back to how he used to be and that real Ciel is beyond saving in that regard.

The ambivalence of Lizzie’s character

This is a post relevant to the whole manga so far, but even more particularly to the current arc, seeing as it is one of the major reasons it’s very hard to be sure of anything when it comes to future developments.

Anyway, I love Lizzie but she’s hella complex and in my opinion, Yana is totally playing on that, which is obviously not helpful. xD An example, before I explain:

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Before the Campania arc, we didn’t know “the real Lizzie” because we had no hint that Lizzie even had the slightest idea what the Watchdog duty was. We didn’t have the slightest idea either that she was as badass as she is.
Literally the first hint we got that something was up with her was when she reacted midly surprised to Ciel holding a gun to her face, more shocked that he’d point it at her than of the fact he was holding a gun in the first place.

This is what I mean by Lizzie’s ambivalence: her character can always be read in two completely opposite ways

and the reason for that is

because she was presented as having two radically different sides rather “late” in the story, compared to when she was first introduced.

The contrast between her naturally extremely cheerful personality (her love of cute things)…

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and what she was taught by her mother (her badass side) was never foreshadowed until the Campania arc, but retrospectively, now that we know about it, it changes things. For example: 

  • you can wonder if the attack on the manor during the circus arc really had Lizzie being clueless about the situation and not even wondering why a part of the manor had exploded during the night.
  • you could even use this contrast to explain why her parents let her go alone to any party, especially to one held by Druitt, a rather popular womanizer (and also human trafficker, not that her parents had to know). 

This leads to one of the major differences between Ciel and Lizzie, narratively speaking: Ciel initially hardly knew anything about the Watchdog duty because Vincent died before he could teach him anything…

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so he had to learn on his own, which is probably why everyone always notices when he fails to be a completely obedient doggy (even if what UT said about him being relatively different from his predecessors is probably another big reason). 

Meanwhile Lizzie had her mom by her side from the beginning, her mom who trained her to be as strong as the Watchdog’s wife needed to be in order to survive. And Frances factors heavily in this difference with Ciel because she herself used to be a Phantomhive. In other words…

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these are what makes Lizzie the badass girl she is and, more precisely, her mother’s lessons are creating the ambivalence of her character, because without Frances’ teachings, the Lizzie we know would simply be the girl we saw until the Campania arc.

So the fact there was another side of her from the beginning and that Yana kept it completely hidden for a while (no foreshadowing at all when we know Sensei loves foreshadowing) could be a narrative choice made to be completely relevant to Lizzie’s role in the story.

To get back on the initial subject and to explain what I meant regarding the current arc, when you see Frances (who’s the one who taught Lizzie everything), do you think she’d even buy Bravat’s fortune-telling?

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Personally I don’t think she would. 

Now, when it comes to Lizzie, what do you think?  Because there is a difference between enjoying a little vibe of mystery (who doesn’t like a deviner trying to guess stuff) and completely buying the words of a total stranger, especially when they seem to know about your fiancé who coincidentally happens to be the Queen’s Watchdog and an important target of the Underworld. 

And this is but one example of why the ambivalence of Lizzie’s character is such. a. pain. when it comes to the current arc, because you could argue that Lizzie’s reaction to Bravat’s “prediction” was genuine…

  • we know she’s been worrying about Ciel hiding something big ever since the Easter chapter, which was in April and Liz met with Bravat in August
  • she’s young and that’s the main difference with her mother who’s a grown adult and who experienced much more than her

…just like you could argue that Bravat’s words possibly frightened her because they were too accurate and, while Ed was yelling, she was busy wondering if Bravat was a possibly dangerous enemy (and in that case, the reason she went back to see him is because she wanted to evaluate just how much he knew about Ciel until, well, Bravat revealed something much more unexpected).

Another example would be:

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Lizzie’s words to a sleeping real!Ciel in ch113. It’s something I remembered last week and that I shared with @thedarkestcrow​ because to this day we still can’t explain her words: What did she mean by “I can’t save you”? Why does she think that?? And save real!Ciel from whom or what???

There again, Yana making her character ambivalent is leading me to imagine two radically different possibilities:

  1. she feels guilty about not being able to give him her blood to save his “radiance” => I’ve personally always found that idea so very stupid (and thus not like Lizzie) considering that she was born with her blood type and that it can’t be helped, buuut I guess the situation could be confusing and painful enough for her to be manipulated into thinking that she’s useless. 
  2. she’s actually implying that she wanted to save real!Ciel from the sect, but it’s proving to be much harder than she expected (hence why she cries) and so she stays by his side, watching the sect killing people while she can only imagine why they brought back the twin and what they intend to make him do once he’ll be “ready”.
    In that case, it’s also no wonder Paula said she’s been constantly crying.

See what I mean? Lizzie’s ambivalent character is proving to be a major pain for the current arc, because we know she was raised by a woman who wouldn’t have taken two shits coming from the blue sect, but Lizzie is not her mother as she’s younger and more inexperienced than Frances.

So what we saw of Lizzie’s actions so far in the arc gives us two big interpretations as to what her role is supposed to be:

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  • was she manipulated by the blue sect to be an hostage to use against our!Ciel?
    • it is the most popular take on her role for this arc: the sect baited her with the twin and she’s choosing his side over our!Ciel’s for the moment because she’s confused and pained by the truth facing her. 
    • hence Bravat’s words in ch123, taunting Ciel with Lizzie’s choosing the twin over him. 
  • or was she trying to double-cross them from the beginning (both for real!Ciel’s and our!Ciel’s sakes)?
    • this part actually belongs to a bigger crack theory I discussed with @thedarkestcrow (with at least UT and Tanaka being involved in the same plan) but I’ll spare you otherwise this post will never end. xD
    • simply it would imply that, from the moment she learnt about the twin, no matter how confused and pained she was, she didn’t choose him over our!Ciel, it’s just that she wants to save him from the sect and has to pretend to be on their side in order to do so.

TL;DR ¯_(ツ)_/¯ we can thank Yana for creating such an ambivalent character because she’s extremely interesting that way and also it’s making things extra hard for us when trying to understand what’s going on in the current arc. xDD

I know this subject can lead to controversy because some readers might want to argue that I’m reading too much into things (which is definitely a possibility) or that Yana is not good enough to imply so much through only Liz’s character though, so I’m ready to discuss the subject if anyone wants to share their thoughts. :))

I just noticed…

midnight-in-town:

Whenever Ciel met with Queen Victoria for a private audience…

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she was always with just the Double Charles…

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John Brown was nowhere to be seen…

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even though he might generally show up after the audience was over with…

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But you know, it makes sense since he’s described as her aide, maybe he supposedly doesn’t have his place whenever the Queen meets with her watchdog, which is why only her butlers stay.

EXCEPT…

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…in ch108, because it went the other way around when the Queen met with Sieglinde and they discussed possibilities for war weapons. This time the Double Charles didn’t stay but John Brown did and assisted to the meeting with Sieglinde. 

It’s also at the same time that he said this…

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…after Ciel tried to double cross them and to hide from the Queen the true nature of Sieglinde’s latest invention. 

Conclusion? Nothing new, but just to add on the theory that Brown is probably not just a simple “aide” to Victoria, but rather one of the main reasons…

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…she’s so powerful and shady herself.

GUYS I JUST NOTICED!!!

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“50 YEARS AGO”

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I just noticed…

Whenever Ciel met with Queen Victoria for a private audience…

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she was always with just the Double Charles…

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John Brown was nowhere to be seen…

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even though he might generally show up after the audience was over with…

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But you know, it makes sense since he’s described as her aide, maybe he supposedly doesn’t have his place whenever the Queen meets with her watchdog, which is why only her butlers stay.

EXCEPT…

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…in ch108, because it went the other way around when the Queen met with Sieglinde and they discussed possibilities for war weapons. This time the Double Charles didn’t stay but John Brown did and assisted to the meeting with Sieglinde. 

It’s also at the same time that he said this…

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…after Ciel tried to double cross them and to hide from the Queen the true nature of Sieglinde’s latest invention. 

Conclusion? Nothing new, but just to add on the theory that Brown is probably not just a simple “aide” to Victoria, but rather one of the main reasons…

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…she’s so powerful and shady herself.

EDIT: !!!

I kinda hope that Lizzie’s comment « I’m sorry I can’t save you, Ciel. » actually means that she knows her duty to him, as her true fiancée, but that she doesn’t love him, but instead Earl Phantomhive, and that she knows that if it comes to it, she’d abandon her duty to him. Like, if Ciel and Earl Phanthomhive were to fight against each other, she’d protected the Earl, and not Ciel. She can stand by his side for now, but if she has to chose, and when she finds out what he did, she won’t chose him.

thedarkestcrow:

Yes, that’s how I see it. I mean, that scene in particular could have also referred to Lizzy not having the same blood type as the twin and therefore being unable to help him since she can’t give him her blood… but I could very well see Lizzy feeling like you described anyway (and that scene may have even had a double meaning). Lizzy cares about both Ciels, I think she always did. But she spent the past four years with our Ciel and has grown to love him. Their relationship has grown over that time. Sure, she thought it was her fiance and our Ciel lied to her but her feelings for the person she thought to be Ciel are still there.

Now that she learnt the truth and the twin is back it’s understandable that she’s so distressed. She feels like he has a duty to the real Ciel and she probably also feels guilty for not noticing herself and that the twin was alone all this time (or so she may think). So she stayed with him in the sect.

But in the end, if she really has to choose, I, too, think that she’ll choose our Ciel because her feelings for him have grown stronger. Also, the twin is doing some terrible things now and may even want to harm our Ciel. I don’t think Lizzy would accept that. 

You said the Ciel in chapter 108 (with undertaker) wasn’t the twin but the Ciel who is in contract with Sebastian, but what about chapter 113 and Lord Sirius? why can’t they be Ciel’s twin?

Hey Anon! That is correct, I believe the Ciel of ch108 is our!Ciel and not the Real!Ciel (that is, if the 2CT is correct) as I exchanged with another Anon here. 🙂

About ch113 and Lord Sirius: First of all the Ciel of ch113 isn’t Lord Sirius or Real!Ciel…

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because that Ciel is sound asleep thanks to the sleeping gas he inhaled

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all that in order to take some of his blood, which means it’s our!Ciel for sure.

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Besides, as we could see in ch115, Lord Sirius who was in the same room and chair as our!Ciel in ch113 was completely awake when Violet came to give his blood…

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…meaning they make guests sleep so they won’t realize they have their blood collected, but in Sirius’ case, since s/he’s a part of that scheme, they have no reason to make him/her sleep. 

There is also the simple fact that seeing in which state Lord Sirius’ arm is in ch115, it just can’t be the same person as in ch113 (because blood transfusion won’t suddenly make this person’s arm look entirely different, if we’re rational of course).

As for Lord Sirius not being Ciel’s twin: I personally still think they are different persons and that the varicose veins Sirius is showing indicates s/he’s certainly not as young as Ciel’s possible twin would be (because if we follow the 2CT, the twin died when they were 10 years old, so even theorizing that UT turned him into a BD, it wouldn’t explain his arms looking like that, or his hands being as big as Violet’s, who’s an adult).

To be honest, I can only affirm that I really think the Ciel in ch108 and ch113 are our!Ciel without many doubts (for me), but I can’t really give you proof that Sirius can’t be Ciel’s possible twin, even if I just don’t consider it to be that way personally right now.

Also, since we’re on the subject, last month I exchanged with two Anons [x] [x] about a theory for this panel…

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Because UT’s attitude is surprising to say the least and I’m not entirely sure this is in reference to the scene of ch108.

Anyway, one of these Anons proposed the idea that the 4 Lords (that some readers theorized to be all linked to Ciel) were in fact all linked to UT (as 4 of the people represented by his lockets). Personally, I like that theory because it would make more sense to have this be about UT rather than Ciel, since UT is most likely involved with what’s going on in the Sphere music hall.

So, while you could imagine he organized all this with Bravat only to make Ciel feel miserable (by bringing back Doll, Madam Red, his twin and Joker if I remember the theory correctly), it seems like a lot of trouble when we know he has his own goal of bringing back people he cherished in particular.

I hope that makes sense Anon! I know the possibility is high that the 2CT might be true, however I just don’t think it will be confirmed or denied in this arc because we already have all the truth about UT to learn about (and there isn’t many doubts we will get answers about him considering Othello’s character and “50 years ago”). 

Sorry this got so long, I hope I answered your question Anon 🙂

Have a nice day!

Lizzy and Ciel in 113 & 114

skania:

I was thinking how sad—and foreboding—it is to see someone as strong-willed, tenacious and bright as Lizzy look this defeated, hopeless and even resigned. And then it occurred to me that her demeanor here poses a very interesting contrast to Ciel as we see him at the end of 114.

We have seen time and time again how being able to protect each other is a recurrent theme for both of them. 

For Lizzy, being a wife capable of protecting Ciel has basically become her raison d’être; she is wholeheartedly devoted to keeping him safe. For Ciel, keeping Lizzy safe is important enough for him to risk his life without a second thought, even at the expense of the revenge he is devoted to.

So it’s really interesting to contrast Chapter 113 and 114 and see how different their mindsets are right now.

On one hand we have Lizzy, who seems certain she can’t save Ciel (and again, something huge must have happened for Lizzy out of all people to even come close to accepting such a thing.)

On the other hand we have Ciel, who seems certain he can save Lizzy.

And at the same time, those beliefs make it so Lizzy and Ciel are showing opposite behaviors. While thinking she can’t save Ciel has (for the time being) seemingly broken Lizzy’s will,

It’s knowing that Lizzy is in danger and being confident he can do something about it that truly lights a fire under Ciel and springs him to action.

“To bring them back to reality… I have no choice but to bring them undeniable proof of such crimes, right before their eyes! Let’s go, Sebastian.”

Damn, the next meeting between these two will really be something. And for more reasons than one!

The Star of Redemption

erebuscheslock:

Looking back on Chapter 113, I noticed this symbol on the door out of which the P4 (sorry, S4) enter. 

(pg.13)

In Christian tradition, the eight-pointed star is the Star of Redemption or Regeneration and represents baptism. Eight is traditionally the number of regeneration, and thus many baptismal fonts have an octagonal base. [x] [x]

This reading would line up with @shinigami-mistress‘s post about the meaning behind Lizzie’s gown (as seen in chapters 112 and 113).

It would also line up with the idea that the P4 joined the cult seeking a form of redemption from their crime, and sought to be reborn as new persons in order to wash themselves clean of their past sins. It would explain the dogma of the cult and the reason why people flock to them. 

What if the four stars are represented not only by the four blood groups, but specifically stand for the Rh type negative. AB- being the rarest, B- being second etc. The blood type with RH – are classified as universal donors for their respective blood type, so 0- can give to all other groups, while 0+ can only give to RH positive groups, just like A- can give to AB+/- and A+/-. Would make some sense since not all the visitors have bracelets even though allot have gone to Bravat for their future

Hey 🙂 While I really enjoy the 4 stars representing the 4 blood types theory (because you know, this part matches completely), I’m not 100% behind it for the moment for two reasons:

  1. it doesn’t explain everything yet: namely the “radiance” part, people being totally happy + the idol group and mind manipulation
  2. technically there is no way a single drop in Bravat’s cup is enough to determine what blood type the customers are, as well as whether they’re Rh + or -. 

I know Yana can twist science and all though, but still I find it a bit too simple as an explanation for the whole arc and besides, I just hope the astrology + mind manipulation settings aren’t just to create the feeling of something supernatural if the arc is all about a blood collect.
We’ve had something like that with the Green Witch arc already and honestly it kills the mood (because the settings of the GW arc were all for plot convenience, it made no sense with the actual desire of the army to create war weapons, that’s why that arc was clearly not the best and I’m not the only one thinking so). 

Anyway, I’m rambling 🙂 all that to say that while the theory is really plausible for a few parts (kudos to the amazing people who thought about this :)), I think we’re still missing a part of the picture.
It’s just my opinion though so no one has to agree (I’m just saying that if Bravat’s bowl is actually how he manages to find out about the blood types, as a science student who’s actually trained to analyze all kinds of blood tests I think I will really suffer in this arc, but I mean who cares right? X)).

Now that you know my position and the fact I can be a little biased, onto your question: technically (and so if we consider that Yana goes the easy way and that Bravat’s bowl is used to determine the blood types) what you’re saying is correct from a biological point of view. 

It’s also true that… 

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not everyone going for a consultation receives a bracelet. 

HOWEVER Lizzie didn’t receive a bracelet after her first consultation either…

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but she had it at least three weeks later…

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while Ciel got his immediately after his first consultation (and yet Lizzie apparently joined the sect while Ciel didn’t).

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So, if Bravat’s cup is supposed to tell with one drop which blood and Rh types his customers are, how comes Lizzie didn’t get her bracelet after her first consultation?

That’s partly why I think we’re still missing a part of the picture somehow, because, besides my dislike of Bravat’s bowl being akin to a biological test of our era lol, bracelets just aren’t necessarily given upon the first consultation.

So actually if we want to be accurate, it’s a bit hard right now to theorize who gets a bracelet, when and why, knowing that Ciel mysteriously got his own after only one consultation, while Lizzie is the perfect example of someone who didn’t get hers just after the first fortune telling.

As such, even if your theory is perfectly accurate on a biological point (only if Bravat’s bowl is such an advanced piece of technology or if he’s supernatural of course), I personally can’t really help you with whether it fits entirely with the arc or not. :/

I think you should definitely keep it in mind, until we get more clues (maybe in the next chapter?) because you have the potentiality to be right for now, it’s just that for me there are still a few unprecise points about Bravat, his bowl and the blood theory. 🙂 

However, these are great thoughts, very interesting and so thanks for sharing 🙂 I’m just sorry I can’t be more helpful on that. 

Thanks for passing by!