Hi Anon! Thanks for reading 🙂 And yep, Sensei said that UT is the most beautiful character (whether she means pre or even post scars is unknown) but that certainly doesn’t mean he has a good hygiene, haha! [x]
Whether the overall reason is that it’s supposed to fit his image of the creepy mortician or that he’s depressed (or a little of both), I don’t know, but I think we’re all going to be shocked once we get a flashback about him (without the scars and nails, with washed hair and not working as an Undertaker):
I’m actually a little frightened to meet his past version because, well, there is a chance back then he had 0 idea about what fun even meant (since it’s no important to him now, I guess he learnt about it post desertion), so we’re definitely in for massive differences about his character.
On the other hand, I can’t wait, because I love his character and I want answers. xD
Thanks again for reading Anon! Have a nice weekend. :3
Hey again Anon! Ah, well, I’m totally biased, but I don’t find that Grell and Seb are on UT’s beauty levels. Vincent, Ciel and Edward are, though! 😀
Anyway, yeah, since we know that UT ended his own life, he must not have had a fun existence at all originally.
In fact, I’m pretty sure that his warning to the Phantomhives is something that he experienced himself, which makes it all very ironic.
Besides, him enjoying fun so much to the point of making this his payment in exchange of info is how comic relief tends to work with Sensei, implying that whoever taught him about fun was someone important to him (like Claudia possibly indeed, since Vincent liked to have fun too). Or so I think.
I also made a post before about a possible parallel between UT’s story and Ciel’s, so I do agree that a comparison between how UT ended up learning about fun when Ciel won’t smile anymore is likely to be meaningful. If anything, “living” is probably something that UT learnt about after he deserted the Shinigamis 50 years ago.
However, I’m not so sure about a flashback for UT anytime “soon”. At least, I’d say that this arc will have to be over first, kinda like it happened with ch105, because I doubt UT is the one who will talk about himself. Not at first.
It doesn’t have to be because he doesn’t want to tell Ciel, but because he doesn’t want Seb to have any leverage against either of them + because the subject of his past alongside Ciel’s predecessors must be painful to him (otherwise he wouldn’t have cried in ch105).
So, if someone else is supposed to introduce UT’s backstory (Othello? Tanaka? Frances?), the arc will probably need to be solved first before we can focus on that. And frankly, seeing the current pace, I just doubt it’s gonna be this year. xD
Of course, I could be totally wrong. So take it with a grain of salt. 🙂
Thanks for passing by Anon and have a nice weekend!
You’re welcome Anon! Thanks for passing by and chatting. :3
I just thought about how people (Sullivan, the prefects, the circus troupe, RCiel if RCMT is true, and probably others) sort of foreshadows how this arc’s mastermind (so to speak), Undertaker, is gonna fail miserably.
Presumably, his intentions are good. He wants to save OCiel’s soul. But boy oh boy are his actions bad.
that the skeleton on UT’s scythe isn’t a part of its original design. Assuming this isn’t a mistake on Sensei’s part or a random skeleton, the question is whose skeleton is it?
The thing is, personally I used to consider possibly Claudia Phantomhive’s, because of the thorns and because of the cover of ch54…
…UT should have also found a way to preserve their bodies from deteriorating (which is possibly why he already knew how to salvage the twin’s body 4 years ago), which doesn’t make it likely for the skeleton on his scythe to be Claudia’s in that case.
However, we know there is someone else that UT cares about, but unlike the twin and possibly the people represented by his lockets, UT can’t bring him back because…
his body got too damaged.
So on the scale of one to ten, how unsettling would it be to consider that UT possibly added Vincent’s skeleton to his scythe so that Vincent will always “be with him”, because unfortunately UT can’t bring him back
as a bizarre doll, like everyone else who matters?
As I said, 100% crack theory, but I always found weird that UT didn’t have/make a funeral locket for Vincent when he seemed to care so much, so the people represented by the lockets must be different from Vincent in some ways.
Maybe that’s because they can be brought back when he can’t…
…and that’s why UT didn’t want to leave what was left of Vincent rest in a grave forever so he added a part of his skeleton to his death scythe.
EDIT: for those who wonder about UT’s words in ch105
Hey Anon! And yep, from the moment a demon who shape-shifted into idk how many animals…
can have intercourse with humans
then Shinigamis who originally are humans should be able to as well. 🙂
As for the “but they’re dead” part, well yeah, but we don’t know exactly what their condition is (I’ll elaborate below) and furthermore, they have primary needs like sleeping and eating so why not other needs?
It’s kinda illustrated by Grell having the hots for several guys so far or even Ronald with most women actually, so to me it seems Shinigamis can feel attraction towards humans, which means they can surely be aroused and seek physical intimacy as a result.
Being able to have sex =/= being able to have kids: that’s a different debate.
Just in case you were asking with this in mind though, I want to precise that personally I think it’s possible for Shinigamis to have kids (so for example, I believe that the UT = Cedric theory is a possibility) because the Shinigamis aren’t exactly “dead”, the way final death is meant to be in Kuroshitsuji.
A human being is defined by two parts: their cinematic record and their soul. When they die, the CR is stopped by Shinigamis and to remain in the body, while the soul is collected. That’s what it means to be dead in Kuroshitsuji.
Now, if you look at UT’s bizarre dolls that are basically undead: they have no soul (because it was collected when they died and UT can’t make one from scratch), but they have edited cinematic records which is what makes the corpse mistakenly think it’s still alive.
As for Shinigamis, well that’s the thing: we know they killed themselves so they should be dead…
but it seems they still have their soul and an unstopped cinematic record (otherwise how could they still move, think and feel?), in spite of their peculiar eyes or their ability to teleport, amongst other supernatural things.
Furthermore…
…clearly they can actually die for real again if they’re hit by a death scythe (a death scythe being used to stop a CR and collect the soul, which is why I think they still have both).
Becoming a Shinigami is a punishment to humans who took their own life so maybe they’re not exactly “dead”. Maybe, similarly to how some humans can be “judged worthy to keep on living” by Shinigamis when they’re fated to die, Shinigamis are special cases of “(not really) dead people”.
All that to say, if they’re not exactly dead, then why wouldn’t they be able to have kids? Don’t get me wrong, we know they have superiors who are most likely scaring the shit out of them and as such, rules to follow were mentioned like…
…because Shinigamis are supposed to be “neutral between Gods and humans”, meaning they’re not supposed to be meddling with humans and have kids with them (or with other Shinigamis I suppose).
As far as UT is concerned though, clearly he fails at being a Shinigami, so him having kids (the UT = Cedric theory) would just be one more broken rule to add to his record. No biggie.
TL;DR yes, Shinigamis can most likely have sex with humans and with other Shinigamis.
And from the moment they’re scared to die if stabbed by a death scythe, they might not be exactly dead the way other humans who don’t kill themselves are dead, so they might be able to have kids with humans or other Shinigamis, even though it is very probably 100% forbidden (since they are forbidden from meddling with life, death and humans).
I hope it answers your question Anon, sorry for the length! As with everything, it’s just my opinion, no one has to agree!
Have a nice day. :))
Hi Anon! Ah, I should have bet that I’d receive this question. xD
Moving on, honestly I don’t know and since Sensei said that she wouldn’t delve into Kuroverse’s demonology
indeed, I’m not sure we have anything to discuss this possibility. ://
The thing is, it’s easier to consider the idea between humans and Shinigamis because Shinigamis are initially humans + because there is the matter of the Phantomhive lineage…
And, without rambling about where it might come from (in my opinion it’s unrelated to whoever Cedric K. Ros is), it has to come from something (a curse?) or someone (an ancestor?) supernatural at the very least.
So the boundaries between humans and the supernatural side of Kuroverse are seemingly thin, but at least Shinigamis and humans are technically the same species, which makes it more legit if Sensei confirms that they can make kids.
When it comes to demons, it seems less likely, because demons can only take on a human appearance + it’s not like they hold humans in a very high regard. I mean, Sensei said before that Seb basically sees humans as insects (or food in Ciel’s case), so to seduce his preys (like Beast for example) to get what he wants (like information) is different from actually being able to reproduce.
Of course maybe not all demons are like him (about seeing humans as inferior), but since it’s likely we’ll never find out… The only way to be sure would be for Sensei to eventually mention it randomly. You know, like with curses…
…or even once Sensei explains what the Phantomhive lineage is all about later.
So, I’m sorry Anon, but I have no clue. Maybe, maybe not. As long as Sensei doesn’t hint at anything though, you’re free to consider what you want, just like for the debate about whether or not Shinigamis can have kids with humans!
Thanks for reading and have a nice day! :))
Hey Anon and nope! At least not in my opinion because, even if it turns out that Shinigamis and humans can make babies, that doesn’t confirm anything as far as Claudia and UT are concerned.
We know that UT apparently cared about Claudia and there is a good probability that there was actually a romantic side to it from his point of view, but we don’t know for sure + we can’t say anything about Claudia’s own feelings.
That’s why we need to know the Undertaker’s real name. Cedric K. Ros– was indicated
(in the Shinigami files)
to be Vincent’s father and Sensei confirmed before that he and Frances had the same parents, so what we need to know is if he and UT are the same person.
If Sensei ever says that UT is Cedric before saying anything about possible human + shinigami babies tho’, then it will confirm both ideas at the same time!
I hope this makes sense. Have a nice day Anon. :))
Hey Anon! And yep, from the moment a demon who shape-shifted into idk how many animals…
can have intercourse with humans
then Shinigamis who originally are humans should be able to as well. 🙂
As for the “but they’re dead” part, well yeah, but we don’t know exactly what their condition is (I’ll elaborate below) and furthermore, they have primary needs like sleeping and eating so why not other needs?
It’s kinda illustrated by Grell having the hots for several guys so far or even Ronald with most women actually, so to me it seems Shinigamis can feel attraction towards humans, which means they can surely be aroused and seek physical intimacy as a result.
Being able to have sex =/= being able to have kids: that’s a different debate.
Just in case you were asking with this in mind though, I want to precise that personally I think it’s possible for Shinigamis to have kids (so for example, I believe that the UT = Cedric theory is a possibility) because the Shinigamis aren’t exactly “dead”, the way final death is meant to be in Kuroshitsuji.
A human being is defined by two parts: their cinematic record and their soul. When they die, the CR is stopped by Shinigamis and to remain in the body, while the soul is collected. That’s what it means to be dead in Kuroshitsuji.
Now, if you look at UT’s bizarre dolls that are basically undead: they have no soul (because it was collected when they died and UT can’t make one from scratch), but they have edited cinematic records which is what makes the corpse mistakenly think it’s still alive.
As for Shinigamis, well that’s the thing: we know they killed themselves so they should be dead…
but it seems they still have their soul and an unstopped cinematic record (otherwise how could they still move, think and feel?), in spite of their peculiar eyes or their ability to teleport, amongst other supernatural things.
Furthermore…
…clearly they can actually die for real again if they’re hit by a death scythe (a death scythe being used to stop a CR and collect the soul, which is why I think they still have both).
Becoming a Shinigami is a punishment to humans who took their own life so maybe they’re not exactly “dead”. Maybe, similarly to how some humans can be “judged worthy to keep on living” by Shinigamis when they’re fated to die, Shinigamis are special cases of “(not really) dead people”.
All that to say, if they’re not exactly dead, then why wouldn’t they be able to have kids? Don’t get me wrong, we know they have superiors who are most likely scaring the shit out of them and as such, rules to follow were mentioned like…
…because Shinigamis are supposed to be “neutral between Gods and humans”, meaning they’re not supposed to be meddling with humans and have kids with them (or with other Shinigamis I suppose).
As far as UT is concerned though, clearly he fails at being a Shinigami, so him having kids (the UT = Cedric theory) would just be one more broken rule to add to his record. No biggie.
TL;DR yes, Shinigamis can most likely have sex with humans and with other Shinigamis.
And from the moment they’re scared to die if stabbed by a death scythe, they might not be exactly dead the way other humans who don’t kill themselves are dead, so they might be able to have kids with humans or other Shinigamis, even though it is very probably 100% forbidden (since they are forbidden from meddling with life, death and humans).
I hope it answers your question Anon, sorry for the length! As with everything, it’s just my opinion, no one has to agree!
Have a nice day. :))
An excellent question Anon. 🙂 But I think the answer is as simple as “because his scars aren’t the result of a death scythe”, so he’s still… well, not dead. xD
Since Shinigamis aren’t exactly humans anymore (their eyes that can see what human eyes can’t, the fact they can teleport, etc), it’s likely that they can die again for real only if they’re stabbed with a death scythe. As such, normal blades or guns shouldn’t work on them.
So in the case of UT’s scars, since Sensei confirmed that he apparently got them after his desertion, it most likely has nothing to do with a death scythe (otherwise you’re right, he would have died from his head not being on his shoulder anymore).
The ??? part about UT’s scars is that they’re literally everywhere on his body so it’s hard to be sure of how he could have gotten them. Hence the many theories:
he was tortured by humans after his desertion (somehow), who freaked out when they realized he wouldn’t die and that’s how he ended up with so many scars
it’s a symbolic representation of his link to the Phantomhive family (since they’re mostly represented by roses and thorns) and we’re not supposed to bother about how he got them
it’s a way for Sensei to introduce an equivalent to the “Thorns of death” from the second musical in the manga. To quote from the wiki: “The Thorns are contracted when a soul destined to die becomes vengeful and fight against the Grim Reapers that would reap it; it would manifest into the form of thorns, which will eventually suffocate the heart.”
Can’t say I have any clue to be honest Anon, except that I really doubt UT’s scars are the result of a death scythe, even if I could be totally wrong. :))
In my personal idea of a timeline about UT though, I tend to think it’s more likely to have happened around or after the time of Claudia’s death (for several reasons but it would be too long to explain now). I also think it’s fair to imagine that one day we’ll find out about how he got them and it will be… bloody to say the least. ://
I hope it answers your question! Thanks for reading and have a nice day :))
Hey Anon! And yep, from the moment a demon who shape-shifted into idk how many animals…
can have intercourse with humans
then Shinigamis who originally are humans should be able to as well. 🙂
As for the “but they’re dead” part, well yeah, but we don’t know exactly what their condition is (I’ll elaborate below) and furthermore, they have primary needs like sleeping and eating so why not other needs?
It’s kinda illustrated by Grell having the hots for several guys so far or even Ronald with most women actually, so to me it seems Shinigamis can feel attraction towards humans, which means they can surely be aroused and seek physical intimacy as a result.
Being able to have sex =/= being able to have kids: that’s a different debate.
Just in case you were asking with this in mind though, I want to precise that personally I think it’s possible for Shinigamis to have kids (so for example, I believe that the UT = Cedric theory is a possibility) because the Shinigamis aren’t exactly “dead”, the way final death is meant to be in Kuroshitsuji.
A human being is defined by two parts: their cinematic record and their soul. When they die, the CR is stopped by Shinigamis and to remain in the body, while the soul is collected. That’s what it means to be dead in Kuroshitsuji.
Now, if you look at UT’s bizarre dolls that are basically undead: they have no soul (because it was collected when they died and UT can’t make one from scratch), but they have edited cinematic records which is what makes the corpse mistakenly think it’s still alive.
As for Shinigamis, well that’s the thing: we know they killed themselves so they should be dead…
but it seems they still have their soul and an unstopped cinematic record (otherwise how could they still move, think and feel?), in spite of their peculiar eyes or their ability to teleport, amongst other supernatural things.
Furthermore…
…clearly they can actually die for real again if they’re hit by a death scythe (a death scythe being used to stop a CR and collect the soul, which is why I think they still have both).
Becoming a Shinigami is a punishment to humans who took their own life so maybe they’re not exactly “dead”. Maybe, similarly to how some humans can be “judged worthy to keep on living” by Shinigamis when they’re fated to die, Shinigamis are special cases of “(not really) dead people”.
All that to say, if they’re not exactly dead, then why wouldn’t they be able to have kids? Don’t get me wrong, we know they have superiors who are most likely scaring the shit out of them and as such, rules to follow were mentioned like…
…because Shinigamis are supposed to be “neutral between Gods and humans”, meaning they’re not supposed to be meddling with humans and have kids with them (or with other Shinigamis I suppose).
As far as UT is concerned though, clearly he fails at being a Shinigami, so him having kids (the UT = Cedric theory) would just be one more broken rule to add to his record. No biggie.
TL;DR yes, Shinigamis can most likely have sex with humans and with other Shinigamis.
And from the moment they’re scared to die if stabbed by a death scythe, they might not be exactly dead the way other humans who don’t kill themselves are dead, so they might be able to have kids with humans or other Shinigamis, even though it is very probably 100% forbidden (since they are forbidden from meddling with life, death and humans).
I hope it answers your question Anon, sorry for the length! As with everything, it’s just my opinion, no one has to agree!
I discussed this privately with a few friends but I actually love the idea a lot so I’m sharing with everyone. 😀
So far in this very long arc, there were a few occasions the focus drifted away from Ciel & Seb. The first major time was at the very beginning of this arc
with Ed being the reason Lizzie went to the Sphere music hall in the first place and the second major time…
led to very unfortunate circumstances. T_T
So I was saying to my friends that I’d love to get some more chapters not focusing on Ciel and Seb, especially now that they’ve been put in a rather awkward position…
and might need the help of others to clear their names if they’re really arrested. And since Soma is hurt, more Ed-centric chapters could be more likely and I’d personally love that.
First of all, it’s hard to believe that Ed won’t question if real!Ciel truly isn’t involved with the Sphere music hall considering that Lizzie is with him and that she left the house for the Sphere music hall over two months ago.
Secondly, Ed is currently the only one who was also there at Weston when UT explained about his latest BDs to Ciel
so, should he recognize UT (even if we know Ed can’t see anyone else when Lizzie is here), he might be able to suspect that something is up with real!Ciel.
As for a team up with Soma, the reasons I find this idea so cool are because Edward and Soma both are characters who are very close to our!Ciel + at the time of ch143, what they know about the current arc is complementary, meaning that if they were to assemble their information, they would both easily realize that our!Ciel was framed.
To explain: what Soma knows and believes is that…
someone who looks exactly like our!Ciel attacked him and Agni, leading to Agni’s murder. So now he’s pissed at our!Ciel because he doesn’t know about the existence of the twin (since our!Ciel never mentioned anything about it).
Meanwhile, Ed just found out that the twin is back…
and that our!Ciel is believed to be behind the blue sect arc for different reasons.
So should Ed see Soma and find out about this…
If Soma tries to argue that our!Ciel did this even if this doesn’t sound like him, then Ed will at least be able to tell Soma that “wait, he actually has a twin brother who just came back???”, which could make Soma realize that his friend is innocent and Ed that the twin is up to no good (especially if he remembers about Weston previously to finding out about the attack on Soma and Agni).
Add Sieglinde…
who heard this, who can confirm that Ciel and Seb are the ones who brought Soma to her and who researched about the blood samples Seb found in the Sphere music hall + Nina…
who helped Ciel and Seb with getting into the Sphere music hall that one time, they will barely need Violet’s confirmation to understand that “Lord Sirius” is in fact the twin (even though I think Violet’ll confirm it either way, because our!Ciel helped him and his friends).
Violet (and also Lizzie) is more likely to be necessary in order to convince the other people involved in this arc that our!Ciel is not Lord Sirius: like the Double Charles (who may end up accusing Ciel of the Parliamentarians’ murders next), Randall (because Abberline won’t be able to convince him on his own I guess) and maybe even Alexis.
TL;DR Ed investigating some more as Ciel is possibly arrested and meeting with Soma could surely be one way for the entire truth to be revealed + also for Soma to stop believing that his best friend attacked him.
I just hope Ed does realize, one way or another, that there is definitely something not right about the twins and Lizzie.
To answer you, personally no I don’t feel that this is rushed at all. In fact I’d say the pace is rather slow (I mean the twin was introduced in the 26th volume) and I had expected our!Ciel to be framed for a while now.
As for what’s the point, it’s a chess game and UT & real!Ciel are the ones who initiated it from the moment they revealed themselves to Ciel. I agree they’re not the simplest characters to understand though, but I theorized about what they could be after here and here respectively! 🙂
Overall, I think the most important to keep in mind about this arc and the latest developments is that our!Ciel is supposed to be confronting all that he never did until now (in order to gain character development), which is something mainly illustrated by the return of his undead brother.
Rewinding the story
back
a little, try to remember why Ciel took on his brother’s identity in the first place and maybe it will make more sense. From the moment his bro died, our!Ciel became Vincent’s successor and the next Earl Phantomhive, so he had no real need to take his brother’s identity.
The reason he did it anyway is because…
he felt extremely guilty about not being the twin who died. It’s a condition called survivor’s guilt, because of the trauma induced by the horrible experience he lived through.
As such, he hates himself for having survived, even more after Seb made him believe that he had willingly sacrificed his brother’s soul into summoning him (which isn’t true, he never wanted any of this, it was an accident)…
and it’s all of this that led to his decision to take on his brother’s identity: because he wanted to make it as if real!Ciel was the one who had survived, both for himself and for what was left of his family (because
he saw himself as inferior to his twin brother and guilty, so he didn’t want to disappoint them).
And this, this mentality right here -that he is guilty and that Seb eating his soul will be his punishment for not having died instead of his brother- is what I believe needs to change for our!Ciel.
Hence the current arc and this face-off between brothers because, if there is any time when Ciel can reflect about his brother’s death from 4 years ago, especially when Lizzie and Soma (who are the closest to him) are also involved, it’s now with the current arc.
Basically, what I’d personally love to get from this arc is for our!Ciel to finally realize that people are happy he’s the one who came back (Lizzie, Ed), that they are happy to have met him during these 4 years (Soma, Sieglinde) and that’s he’s certainly not worthless compared to his brother.
Because, if our!Ciel gets this kind of positive development about himself, then later he may end up starting to question whether or not the terms of the contract are still something he agrees to.
And personally I’d love to see this type of conflict eventually happening between Seb and Ciel, because it’s just way more interesting narratively speaking than their highly functioning duo that exists ever since vol1, especially if Seb is truly supposed to be Kuroshitsuji’s main character (because main characters need to be challenged and to develop, be it in a good or bad way).
There you go Anon! I hope this makes sense? Honestly ever since this…
I’ve been waiting for a build up to an eventual conflict about the contract between Seb and Ciel. If it happens it will be way later though, if just because Ciel needs to get a better view of himself first if he’s to ever reflect back on the covenant he made with his butler.
That’s why Ciel having to confront what he decided 4 years ago and most of his behavior towards people who care about him is important right now. For me that’s mostly what the current arc is all about, with possibly some answers about the Phantomhive family and UT’s personal issues with them.
Sorry for rambling, as with everything it’s just my take on the subject but I hope this wasn’t too hard to understand. Thank you again for the kind words and have a lovely day ahead Anon! :3
do you ever think about how weird it is that the moral of Frankenstein is kind of less just “graverobbing is weird and creepy” and more “take some fucking responsibility if you’re going to do so”
“if you’re going to create a large corpse son, you better be ready to love him”
Hi Anon! And well, if I have to be honest, the Hamlet ova is the only thing that’s still making me think that UT and Liz could have some interesting interactions because UT might in fact care about her. Not that he makes it that evident.
I discussed this with several of my friends actually, but UT is just… bad at caring in general. After all, he threw Ciel from a staircase during the Campania arc because he wanted to lure Seb in and, mostly, he bet that Seb would still catch him even after being stabbed by his death scythe.
And all that happened with me personally believing that UT does care about our!Ciel: it’s just that he’s extreme when it comes to his plans.
So the same could be said of Lizzie and this arc: the lack of interactions could be Sensei not wanting to reveal too much, as explained by @bone-shaped-cookie, and UT could just be focusing about his goal and not caring to do anything about Lizzie’s distress because it’s not a priority of his…
…despite holding her in the same regard as the twins.
It’s definitely a strong subject of debate (whether he cares about Lizzie, or the Midfords in general, or not) and there is no way to be sure for now.
Back to the Hamlet ova, the thing is, while it can be seen that Sensei was consulted about some narrative choices in s1 (UT being a shinigami for example, or Ciel going to prison), I’m not sure the same can be said with it.
If anything, maybe the reason UT ended up wanting to wear a dress and chattered about it with Lizzie simply was because they needed someone with long hair to play the Queen and Grell was already Ophelia. That’s why, as much as I’d love to see it as a guarantee that UT and Liz will one day have friendly/funny interactions in the manga, I can’t really count on it.
So I just… don’t know about the Hamlet ova and when it comes to the topic of how involved Sensei was with s1, @frederickabberline is more reliable than me.
Still, thanks for sharing Anon! ^_^ And please have a nice weekend! :3
midnight-in-town 