Maybe it’s just me reading too much into this, but the way this is written/translated is giving me the feeling that, unlike the fake memories from the Campania arc, UT possibly isn’t the one who extracted those “episodes” (even if he’s the one who added them to the records)…

…If it’s true though, then this could further solidify the idea that he’s possibly not the only supernatural being involved with bringing back the dead…

…especially in the current arc.

For more details, please take a look at @frederickabberline‘s recap post for the current arc!

If we look apart from possible retconning, do you think there’s a reason that Sebs’ flashback was SO different from Our!Ciel’s? :’) It’s… so stark hahahaha. Or is there reasoning to it? I can’t seem to figure that out by myself. :> Thanks for your time, and good luck with the week!

Hello Anon! Ahh, this is a very interesting question, about which I recalled debating with the @thedarkestcrow when ch137 was just being released one and a half month ago (and it’s possible even @shinigami-mistress made a post on the subject but I couldn’t find it again if that is the case). :))

To be honest, I think retconning/narrative convenience is the most likely answer (since a lot of important elements, like the twin, have an impact on the meeting between Seb and Ciel), even if I remember considering another explanation about cinematic records possibly

being

subjective, meaning that the same event could appear differently in two distinct cinematic records.

To this day, I still can’t decide between narrative convenience or a mix of that and the possible subjectivity of one’s record, but…

the fact that UT got those yearning-for-the-future episodes from inside the human’s brain (or their record or wherever else they were extracted from) makes me think it’s possible that subjectivity could affect one’s record to an extent.

In fact, a long while ago (before we knew what Shinigamis were), I even remember wondering about if a record could change depending on the sanity of the person, as in, if maybe any type of psychological disorder could affect what the cinematic record would show because of the person’s subjectivity.
Of course I doubt it will ever be addressed in detail, but it’s just to say that it would make sense for subjectivity to at least slightly influence one’s record.

In any case, it’s hard to be sure because the only cinematic records we’ve really seen in details were Angelina’s and Seb’s and we got both of them as narrators during those moments…

except that we also got a narrator anytime we had a flashback (Lizzie’s, Ciel’s, Kelvin’s), so this doesn’t really prove that cinematic records are affected by one’s subjectivity.

Finally, Seb’s record from his fight against Grell in ch10 showed the part about “taking the ring out”…

…which was also missing from what we saw of his record in ch62/63, so that’s why I think that narrative convenience/retconning is definitely the biggest part of the answer to your question. :3

I hope this can be helpful somehow! Thank you for the nice words and I wish you a great week as well! ^3^

Hi! I loved your recap post about your thoughts on the current arc. :) I rambled in the tags about the few things I personally interpreted differently but I had a few questions about some parts of the arc you didn’t address if that’s okay? What do you make about Tanaka’s apparent lack of surprise about the twin in ch130 and what do you consider Lizzie’s role to be exactly regarding the blue sect? Lastly if we consider that the guy who killed Agni was Polaris, why do you think he was so strong?

frederickabberline:

Thank you so much!!! Yes, I saw, and I was going to reblog with your tags to respond because I need discussion on my points so I can refine them, but since you’ve sent me an ask I’ll do it here –

I absolutely agree on the twins looking like Cloudia and that being what Othello is referring to, but I don’t think I mentioned it (because it didn’t feel relevant to the post and it wasn’t something I could back up). As for the lockets, I’m not sure about Gilbert either but I go with that date because it’s so close to Albert’s death. In the case that it was during the 80s, then there’s a couple of other dates that it could line up with, but… We’ll see. As for Emile, I don’t mean to imply that he was definitely a citizen of France. After all, Druitt is French, and by extension, Redmond has French ties, but I wouldn’t consider Redmond himself French, right? I should have been clearer about that.

I’ve also been assuming that Grelle would theoretically recognise UT based on a multitude of factors such as his scythe, height, weight, hair colour and length, extraordinarily pretty face, possibly even his voice after he dropped the act during Campania, and the fact that if she knew somebody matching this general description and skill level who had deserted, it wouldn’t take much to put the pieces together, provided Dispatch isn’t bleeding out like fifty new deserters every year or something. Lastly, they only started this method of blood collection this summer, if you recall that they’re attached to the Phoenix society who had that hospital and all those slaves and ex-patients who were experimented on by Rian and UT, they had access to a lot of people before this point. It was only this summer that they had to drop the hospital, too, since I’ll bet that operation has collapsed following Campania.

Moving on!

To be honest, I’m not sure if I’m really worth asking about these things, because I have a very limited focus and my method of analysis is a) does it relate to something that happened or was mentioned in the anime b) does it relate to a real life event c) can I see a pattern otherwise d) is it to do with William or the other reapers. I’m in the dark as to what’s going to happen with Lizzie, she’s not “my division”, so to speak, and neither is Polaris;;; I know you don’t really jive with the anime as a source material, I checked your blog, but I still reeaaallly want to point you to [my very long post] about the parallels, because it’s where I come from as a theorist even if it’s a weird way to go about it. I respect that others don’t view it the same way, but it’s my grounding, you know?

But I’ll start with Polaris, just to also say I have literally no clue who the other lords are, none whatsoever, not the foggiest. No clue where they came from or why Blavat has them (or rather, they have Blavat,). I’m not sold on them being characters we already know, but that’s only because I really have no idea who they could be. I do think Polaris is the one who killed Agni. Now, if John Brown is supernatural (which, he is, let’s be real) then Polaris can’t be John Brown, as Polaris is receiving blood and is therefore most likely human, unless one of the Vega twins actually has the blood type Polaris is supposed to have, and so the blood collected for him is going to one of them, but that’s just too convoluted at this point.

Polaris…. could be the being who collected RC’s body, which I think is that cloaked figure, but… Well, the supernatural thing comes up again. Because Sebastian killed every human. (…and there’s a part of me without concrete evidence that suspects the figure to be John Brown anyway…)

If he isn’t supernatural, then we have a collection of very strong humans so far as well, and if he’s been brought back to life then he could have been physically enhanced as well. Like Agni is so strong because he was so dedicated to Soma, and perhaps Polaris has a similar thing going on, maybe that’s his whole deal too? I’ve not really thought about it.

I also haven’t really thought about Lizzie, but she’s definitely being used as a pawn by whoever is running the Blue Sect. Probably it’s worth noting that this is the same arc we see Othello, so named because of that game of pieces switching sides. It’s an isolation tactic against OC, and my personal belief is this arc has a good chance of leading to him becoming isolated, confused about his revenge, and stripped of his title as he was near the end of the anime. I don’t know if that will definitely happen at the end of this arc, but I think this arc has a good chance of being at least one of the factors that would lead to this. Lizzie survived the anime, but then again so did Agni, so her becoming mortally wounded isn’t out of the question. Either way, isolation tactic, and her being a good guard is probably a side benefit for the Blue Sect.

Tanaka, however, I can get into! He knows so much! This is where I get anime on you again and point out that he knew the entire time who killed Vincent and didn’t say anything to Ciel because it was against Vincent’s wishes. Further, Tanaka and Ash were on friendly terms, even if it was just a one-off gag. Tea with the enemy. Same thing revealing itself here, Tanaka is very aware of the truth at all times but he keeps it all to himself because he’s got a strict non-interference policy. I think he wants the twins to live truthfully, at that, based on his being so active in wanting OC to slowly and gently heal in the Green Witch arc. He knew OC wasn’t RC, he knew this was the facade falling down, and he wanted it to stay on course. Based on that same non-interference vibe, though, I don’t think he’ll explicitly take RC’s side against OC except in the matter of RC technically being master of the house (and therefore commanding his service). I can’t see him attacking OC, is what I mean.

Tanaka has seen the deaths of Vincent, Cloudia, and RC, even if RC is technically back, that makes it three generations he’s watched fall. The Phantomhive butler cannot die before their master indeed. This is the point where I point out that Alex B.’s locket puts his death date (1854 April 20) as not only just a couple of years before the Second Opium War, but the same year Japan was forcibly opened to trade with America (that part of the expedition was 13 February 1854 ~ 11 July 1854, with the treaty that opened trade happening on March 31). Tanaka is so related to all of this, he’s inextricably woven into this whole political mess that the twins are inheriting, but he’s so secretive that we only have a sliver of the full story regarding him. In short, it would be more surprising for him to be (openly) surprised, because there’s no way he hasn’t known to some degree what’s been going on, and he’s maybe hoping that what’s happening now will be a solution.

@frederickabberline Sorry about the tags xD It was very early in the morning when I read your post buuuut I didn’t want to impose on your hard work ~~but then I also couldn’t stay quiet so akzejakzejkr~~ ANYWAY. Thanks for answering my questions :33 I just have a few more things to add, which I hope you may find worth your time.

Firstly just to make things clear, I am not of the opinion that the anime doesn’t hold any interest when it comes to theorizing (because obviously it does, for reasons you pointed out). It’s just that I’m tired of fans forgetting that in case of differences between the manga and the anime, then the manga content is what’s canon. That’s all. 🙂

Now, when it comes to UT not being recognized by the other English reapers, I really like your idea that UT possibly wandered around before “officially” deserting around 1839, kinda like Grell did for a while when they were killing alongside Red (they still had the death list, the scythe, the glasses before Will brought them back).

However, it is also true that I think his current appearance possibly drastically changes from what he used to look like as an acting reaper.
Sensei confirmed that the scars were post-desertion (at least for the anime, but it’s one of these things I can assume being relevant for the manga as well), so between that, the possible hair bleaching and the creepy appearance, it’s not impossible that he might be hard to instantly recognize.

I just like your idea more because Will keeps complaining about the lack of reapers and I too kinda doubt that Grell would forget a man apparently as beautiful as UT. xD

About the blood collects for the star lords: you’re right, it’s my bad, I definitely forgot about what Lau said in April regarding the Karnstein hospital being a source of corpses, despite discussing it once before as a possibility for the blood collects. So I guess the experiment with the star lords could have been going on even from before Summer then!

The only thing I still doubt is the identity of the other star lords besides the twin, because they could be random characters or not at this point.
If they are random then no problem; if they’re characters we’ve seen before who were brought back to life somehow (even if I’m really not sure either), then it might change the timeline since Kuroshitsuji for now spans the years 1888/1889 (unless of course we’re saying that they started with real!Ciel and then experimented with the other star lords way after).

Regarding Polaris now, first of all I’m glad we agree on the whole Polaris =/= Brown or Tanaka, specifically because of the blood transfusions.
Also, while it’s true we have no way to be sure that Agni’s killer is indeed really Polaris (instead of Brown in disguise for example), I’d still assume so because of the knives the killer used that we could see in Polaris’ room.

As for Polaris’ huge strength (since I’m just going to assume it’s him), I asked you this, because I proposed a theory a while ago about his strength possibly being enhanced by the same formula as Finny who was a successful German experiment, and I was curious about if you had any other idea.

The + of my idea is that it’s yet another argument to the whole “UT is either partially involved or not involved at all with the twin’s revival” because real science is definitely not his gig, as he made sure to say during the Campania arc (hence Othello’s words in ch119, I completely agree with you).
The – is that it doesn’t help us figuring out who the other supernatural being is (in case they’re not a new character) and which side they’re on, so to speak.

Initially, I assumed that the blue sect could be on Victoria’s side (when you presented them to be against her, which is another interesting possibility) and managed by Brown (who’s probably a demon, yes):

because she wants war (and Wolfram coincidentally mentioned that blood transfusions are super useful for war),
because the equipment and devices she gave to Sieglinde in ch114 are similar-looking to these of the sect,
because she’s interested in bizarre dolls (and other useful war weapons)
because killing these lords from the Parliament in ch125 might also be seen or used as a political move (since “the Queen reigns but does not rule” and, again, she definitely wants that war)
because the hooded dude from 4 years ago could be the killer of December 14th (*cough*I agree it’s possibly Brown*cough*), keeping an eye on the twins the whole month to make sure they would die horribly and then taking the twin’s body before he burnt.

And since Ciel is the one who annihilated the German organization that was experimenting on kids like Finny and enhancing their strength during the year before Kuro started, Victoria might have (developed) the formula thanks to him (kinda like she almost gained the SuLIN from the GW arc).

Of course, it’s also possible that you’re the one who has the right idea and, whichever country the blue sect mostly works for/is financed by (Germany? France? unless they’re just creating war weapons to sell to the highest bidder when the war starts?), they have a similar formula to the one developed by those German scientists, which they could have used on the star lords (or just on Polaris who’s supposed to protect

real!Ciel as the blue star’s butler).

Please let me know if anything is unclear, IDK how many posts I wrote on the subject by now, but since everything is possibly entangled together, it can be hard to explain well. :3

About Lizzie, we don’t really agree in the sense that I don’t think her being a pawn used by the sect (despite them seeing her like that) or a damsel in distress (like in that arc from the anime) are the only possibilities for her role in the current arc, but that’s okay. 🙂

Since my answer is becoming super long though

(sorry -_-), I’ll just leave you a link to a post in which I expanded on the subject (alternative title being “hopefully Frances is relevant as a character”) just in case you’re interested!

And finally about Tanaka, who’s probably the most knowledgeable character of the entire cast just like you said (~~kinda subverted regarding UT and possibly Frances though~~), I personally took his lack of surprise regarding the twin “not being dead” as something that might be relevant (and possibly foreshadowed in ch120?) to the different sides that are facing off in that arc.

I am 200% prone to reading way too much into details like this however, but it’s just that these days I doubt this arc is as simple as UT + blue sect vs Ciel & Seb. I guess Tanaka’s possible agency in this arc (and alternatively Lizzie’s) depends on what exactly UT’s own agency towards the sect is though, so I’ll just stop there. :3

Again I apologize for rambling (this is exactly the reason I avoided adding anything besides tags to your other post), but thanks again for answering my questions, that was really interesting! ^3^

The Blue Star Group, Undertaker, and Real Ciel: A Timeline

frederickabberline:

Dates/times originating from the anime will be included with ** in front of them, but I’d recommend not disregarding them until we have something from the manga that contradicts them directly. See also [my post] about season 1 being parallel to the manga, if you’re not sold on it having been based on the general direction/themes of the manga and therefore a valuable analysis resource.

Shoutout to Ducky @akumadeenglish for her [kuroshitsuji timeline] post, which has made putting this together a lot easier.

Important points to consider:

When Undertaker deserted, why he did so, and what were the political circumstances he did so in

When Undertaker finally managed to make an advanced and life-like bizarre doll (Agares)

When the Blue Star group must have been founded, how long they’ve been operating for, and the extent of their influence and operations

When RCiel was brought back to life, and how

Who the too-calm figure in the crowd at the sacrifice was, who was seen only for a single panel

Timeline:

**1226~1261 Earliest known possible mentions of Robin Hood (as far as I know), who Undertaker was said to have reaped. – Season 1 Grim Reaper Library episode.

**1793 October 16 death of Marie Antoinette due to the French revolution, who Undertaker was said to have reaped. – Season 1 Grim Reaper Library episode.

Some time before deserting Undertaker comes up with the idea to extend cinematic records after their end, which as we know results in bizarre dolls. – Volume XIII Chapter 60, Campania Arc.

**1799 December William and Grelle’s graduation, i.e. the latest date possible that anime!Undertaker could still be an active reaper in London, as Grelle doesn’t recognise him at all. – Season 2 OVA The Tale of Will the Reaper.

1830 April 05 Cloudia Phantomhive is born. – Ducky’s post.

1837 June 20 Victoria becomes Queen, aged 18. – Ducky.

1837 December 10 death date of Molly G., the fifth locket from the left.

1839 Roughly the last time Undertaker was called a reaper. “It’s been at least half a century since I was last called that.” – Volume XIII Chapter 60, Campania Arc.

1839 Roughly the last time Othello was in the human world. – Volume XXIV Chapter 114, Blue Cult Arc.

1839 November 03 Start of the First Opium War (Britain vs China).

1840 November 13 death date of Oliver A., the second locket from the left.

1841 Hong Kong enters British Crown rule.

1842 August 29 end of the First Opium War.

1848 June 18 death date of Emile C., the first locket from the left.

1851 June 13 Vincent Phantomhive is born. – Ducky.

1851 October 07 death date of Harry E., seventh and final locket from the left.

1854 April 20 death date of Alex B., third locket from the left.

1856 October 08 Second Opium War begins (Britain, France, India, and the USA vs China).

1860 October 24 Second Opium War ends.

1861 December 14 Prince Albert dies, aged 42. – Ducky.

1862 March 01 death date of Gilbert D., sixth locket from the left.

1866 July 13 Cloudia Phantomhive dies, aged 36. – Ducky. She is the fourth (centre) locket.

1875 December 14 the Phantomhive twins are born. – Ducky.

1878 December 14 Princess Alice (Victoria’s 2nd daughter) dies at age 35. – Ducky.

1885 December 14 the Phantomhive manor is attacked. Rachel, Vincent (age 34), Sebastian, and most servants die. – Ducky.

1886 January OCiel makes the contract with Sebastian, RCiel is killed by the cultists. – Ducky.

1886 July(???) construction of the tower bridge begins some time around this year – Volume XVIII chapter 85.

1888 March 27 Original death date of one of the Blue Cult benefactors. – Volume XXV chapter 124. Blood transfusions for the benefactors must have been happening since before this point in order to have unnaturally extended their lifespans.

1888 Summer (June~August) Derrick Arden is last seen by his family. His letters home cease not long after this, as he and Agares have been killed and promptly reanimated using advanced bizarre doll methods. – Volume XIV chapter 67. Aurora Society started their experiments on the dead some time before this.

1889 March 12-14 Murder Arc, involving the death of Patrick Phelps, son of a distinguished shipbuilding magnate. That is, Blue Star Line Company. Undertaker called in to help the cleanup after.

1889 April 17 – 20 Campania Arc, the bizarre dolls are first revealed. – Ducky’s post.
Note: Campania was a Blue Star Line Company ship.

1889 April – June 4 Weston Arc, culminating in the reveal of Undertaker’s advanced bizarre dolls at the midnight tea party. – Ducky.
Undertaker states that Agares is his “crowning masterpiece… For now.” – Volume XVIII chapter 84.

1889 July(?) construction of the tower bridge has been going on for roughly three years. – Volume XVIII chapter 85.

1889 August(?) Undertaker heads to Germany to see Diedrich while he’s on his way to France for an unknown reason. “The Undertaker? He was just here” – Volume XXII chapter 105, Green Witch Arc.

1889 August 17 Hilde Dickhaut death, William asks the German reapers to report any information they may have on Undertaker to the English branch. – Volume XXII chapter 105, Green Witch Arc.

1889 November 15 the Blue Cult benefactors are killed by Blavat. Blavat seems aware he’s extended their lives – “I think you lot have lived quite long enough. Don’t you? You’d already be dead if we hadn’t helped you.” – Blavat, Volume XXV chapter 124.
“You should be grateful you were able to benefit from the leftovers […] Everything… Is for the Blue Star.” – Blavat, Volume XXV chapter 123.

1889 November 15 RCiel kills Agni and returns to the Phantomhive manor. – Ducky.

1901 January 22 Queen Victoria’s death date in real life.

Analysis/Notes:

1. When Undertaker deserted, why he did so, and what were the political circumstances he did so in

Undertaker having presumedly reaped both Robin Hood and Marie tells us three immediate things. First, that he most likely originated in England during the mediaeval period. Second, that he was considered such a good reaper that he was allowed to handle an extremely high-importance case for a branch in a different country. Third, that he deserted at some time after October 1793.

(Interestingly, these two figures also hold polar opposite images, Robin Hood having stolen from the rich to give to the poor, and Marie having been a part of the French aristocracy who were living the high life while the common people suffered high taxes and other miserable conditions).

As far as we know, in December 1799, William T. Spears and Grelle Sutcliff graduate from traineeship and are recognised as full-fledged grim reapers, entering the London branch within the next few months (With the character songs and early episodes having had hints to the reaper origins being suicide, and the anime having revealed UT was a powerful reaper long before the manga, I just can’t imagine that William’s OVA was set in an arbitrary year until we get something that contradicts it). If this is the case, it means Undertaker must not have been in the London branch by this time as Grelle has seen him multiple times in the manga and does not show any hint of recognition at any point. Either he deserted between 1793 and 1799, or he is still in France (or abroad somewhere else) in 1799 and does not return to London again until after his desertion.

So the latest he could have been an active reaper in London was 1799, but what about abroad? Let’s take a look at his mourning locket dates.

Molly G. 10 December 1837 (fifth locket from the left)
Oliver A. 13 November 1840 (second)
Emile C. 18 June 1848 (first)
Harry E. 7 October 1851 (seventh)
Alex B. 20 April 1854 (third)
Gilbert D. 01 March 1862 (sixth)
Cloudia P. 13 July 1866 (fourth)

The earliest death is Molly G., the same year Victoria ascended to the throne. Not one of them is close to the date he would have had to have last been in the London branch if the anime is anything to go by, and I believe he deserted before Molly’s death. If he stayed in service after 1799, then due to Grelle’s lack of recognition we know it must have been abroad.

He did go to France again for an unknown reason during the Green Witch arc, so he does have ties there. There was [another French revolution in 1830], followed by the reign of Louis Philippe I, which then ended in 1848, also the year of Emile’s death. Emile being a French name, that might be of note later in the series, and could further support his having French ties. Undertaker must have deserted at the very latest, by any account, fifty years ago in 1839 when the First Opium War started, Othello was last in the human world, and UT was last recognised as a grim reaper. It makes more sense to me for him to have deserted a bit before this point, as he must have been quite attached already to the dead-in-’37 Molly G., likely knew her personally, and would therefore have had to have been in England at or before the time of her death but not there with Dispatch.

“And then he left to make bizarre dolls and/or because he fell in love with humans and wanted to bring them back, wasn’t it? Or for the Phantomhives?” you may ask. Well, it probably wasn’t for the Phantomhives. Cloudia was born in 1830, just seven years before Molly died and nine years before he was last referred to as a reaper. It’s unlikely that a ~nine year old girl was the only reason he deserted, if she even figured into the decision. I do believe she was involved and present in the ‘39 affair, and both Undertaker and Othello met/saw her at the time, but that’s just a guess on my part.

As for bringing humans back and creating the dolls, Undertaker does say he came up with the idea for extending people’s records while he was still an active reaper. But, he never says that’s why he left. He also never says he intended to create bizarre dolls the first time he extended a record. In fact, he seems to imply the opposite; he had no clue what would happen if he took the end off a record and put something else there, he just wanted to find out. So did he desert to continue that research? I don’t think so. Undertaker has only recently achieved any level of success with the dolls, which means he either spent from fifty to a hundred years doing the exact same thing and hoping for a different result, or he didn’t start making them in earnest until very recently.

So if he didn’t leave Dispatch to create bizarre dolls, and he likely left before the first locket death date, it must have had something to do with where he was at mentally or physically at the time. He spent what we can only assume was hundreds of years as a reaper, unquestioning and with outstanding results. Why would that suddenly change? Why did he suddenly get the thought to remove the ends? Why did he lose his faith in redemption and start working outside of and against the system, against systems in which someone looks on from afar and makes ever-suffering others do all the work?

Afficher davantage

“Who doesn’t have a way we’ve seen to restore life and health through blood? Why, it’s Undertaker. Who cannot create a truly live being with a soul, be it the correct soul or a borrowed one? Undertaker. Who has only after the death of Arden and Agares been able to create a doll that acts so much like a living person via episodes? Undertaker.

Just as Othello said “That person didn’t know much about this sort of thing”, it’s highly unlikely Undertaker did this alone if he was ever involved in the revival itself at all. It’s seeming more and more likely that another supernatural being is involved here, be it reaper, demon, or angel, and that being has given the Blue Star group the information they needed to bring RCiel back to life.

[…]

If the ‘how’ of his resurrection isn’t ‘Undertaker did it’, then Undertaker is more likely there because the group has the living Phantomhive heir, and his bizarre doll creations would be what he is giving the group in return, out of devotion to RCiel and/or the Phantomhive line, or the opportunity to be involved in this kind of development, or because the Blue Star group seems to be working against Victoria/outside of her knowledge, and would therefore count as anti-monarchist. Or something like that. I don’t know.”

midnight-in-town:

midnight-in-town:

Ahhh, the chapter at least finally explains what we saw as plot convenience until now, which is to say “why isn’t Seb taking care of Ciel’s revenge right away?”.

Turns out Ciel wants to kill whoever the mastermind is with his own hands, after finding out why his family had to die (~~Ciel my boy though, Tanaka, Frances and even UT probably know why though, so don’t you think it’s time to go and ask them?~~)

*whispers* they knowwwwwww (probably)

@your-lovers-and-drifters Oh I’ve been agreeing for a while that this sounds beyond strange, and actually from the moment I read all of the following…

that’s when I started thinking about deeply-rooted mommy-related issues for Vincent and Frances, probably because the way Claudia died was something they had a hard time facing and accepting (exactly like our!Ciel who can’t even refer to his parents as such after everything that he went through) and that led to the current situation we’re talking about.

I mean, frankly I can understand Ciel not knowing about a link between UT and Claudia since there is a possibility that even Frances and Vincent didn’t know, but not knowing about his whole family, about his grandmother, and thus mistakenly assuming things about his predecessors?
This goes beyond just being the second son and that’s why I agree there is most likely a reason besides plot convenience.

You mentioned Tanaka too, but the same goes where he’s concerned since Claudia was probably his first master and he most likely was Vincent & Frances’ parental figure after she died:

At least UT has the excuse of not exactly being a part of this family and thus not having to explain stuff, but Vincent, Tanaka and Frances?
They never told the children (Lizzie and Ed as well, most likely) probably because there is something that’s beyond ugly or sad about Claudia’s time as the Watchdog, or maybe the family in general.

It’s exactly the same explanation as to why Vincent already expected to die a few years before it happened [x][x] and I really feel for Frances who’s basically the last one with Tanaka to know all these secrets and decide if/when she should address them with her nephew (’cause I’m still kinda hoping that’s her role).

TL;DR I’d bet you whatever you want that Claudia is a big part of why Ciel is just “???” about his whole family + that Vincent’s death probably didn’t help Frances (and Tanaka) with taking the decision to address a painful subject.

I adressed this before, but basically we have a few hints indicating that Vincent and Frances were most likely close siblings, possibly because of what happened to their mom when they were still young. I mean, they bickered of course, but they wouldn’t have betrothed two of their kids together if they didn’t have a good reason to both think it was extremely important.

In other words, Ciel is ??? to this day about his own family, probably because Frances is ;_; about her brother and mother and same for Tanaka.

(As you can see it’s a subject I love and I wish we could address in canon sometimes before the century ends but I don’t wanna sound pressuring here xD)

Source: midnight-in-town

midnight-in-town:

Ahhh, the chapter at least finally explains what we saw as plot convenience until now, which is to say “why isn’t Seb taking care of Ciel’s revenge right away?”.

Turns out Ciel wants to kill whoever the mastermind is with his own hands, after finding out why his family had to die (~~Ciel my boy though, Tanaka, Frances and even UT probably know why though, so don’t you think it’s time to go and ask them?~~)

*whispers* they knowwwwwww (probably)

I was looking through your old posts and i noticed you said that the Undertaker killed over a thousand people? My question is how and when did that happen in the manga? I don’t think you’re referring to his time spent as a grim reaper bc he was just doing his job or some of the bizarre dolls bc from what I could tell he was experimenting on the humans after they died, he didn’t kill them himself personally. For example Lord Edmonds fag, Derrick was killed by the p4 not UT. Just curious?

into–the–abyss:

Literally no one on the site ever remembers/makes mention of this. You all have collective Undertaker amnesia. I think that’s now Number 1 on my Unhappy List.

It’s right in Chapter 60. He let the Bizarre Dolls go after the humans on the ship just to see how many die on each side. And then he’s all thrilled that an iceberg popped up and made matters worse.

Great way to entertain ones’ self.

UT has charmed you all so much you can’t even remember the nasty atrocious stuff he’s done.

[Whole debate]

@into–the–abyss, I’m sorry, I had to conceal the previous reblogs because it was becoming extremely long, I hope you don’t mind.

First though, here’s a disclaimer to clarify something that you said: Undertaker is indeed one of my favorite characters because I find him complex and interesting. However, I do like Sebastian’s character very much as well and no, I don’t know about you or other bloggers, but I don’t “defend” characters I enjoy.

My only interest in all of this is to present my take on both their characters, based on how I interpret what I read about them and their dynamic in canon, and (not necessarily for this debate but) to possibly help people avoid mischaracterizing them when it’s really too blatant a contradiction with canon.

That’s why I was a bit mad a few days past that you’d consider that everyone who liked UT’s character was biased about him, because I really don’t think that we all are. Of course it’s subjective so I can understand you not believing me, but please know that I’m striving on being impartial whenever I discuss series. 🙂

About Seb & souls

Here’s what was precisely said:

but considering what I said in my previous post, I’m still thinking that it’s possible it might be meant as a luxury in the sense that they’re always hungry for souls, because it will only satiate their hunger for a short time whenever they eat (and deceiving humans before getting their soul is the reason they exist), but this hunger won’t lead them to get weak and die/stop existing.

And even then if you don’t agree on the idea, it’s completely fine, but I still stand by my opinion that our!Ciel’s contract was/is in no way an immediate necessity for Seb because he initially left the choice to Ciel and anyway, it was confirmed he ate the twin’s soul literally just before offering the contract (and it’s been 4 years since then).

In other words, I don’t think Seb deserves to win (again, to use your words) because I don’t think his survival is linked to him eating Ciel’s soul or not.
In fact, I feel it’s a bit too dichotomic to just pit the characters against each other and gauge who deserves to get their agenda validated.

It’s just more complex than that IMO and actually that’s why I like Ciel being at the center of Seb’s and UT’s different goals, because overall it’s him living or dying (something that he has a decisional power over, even if it doesn’t seem so clear to even him so far IMO) that will decide who between Seb and UT wins.

About the current arc

I won’t expand because it’s all on my blog and probably not something you wish to discuss in details, but ch108 is just hard to take at face value. Obviously it tells us that UT is involved in this arc, but how and to what point, it’s not so certain (at least to me) for different reasons so far.

I’ll leave it at that though because in itself it doesn’t change much about UT’s (or Seb’s) characterization for the reason I explained in my previous post (namely that if UT’s indeed the responsible party behind this arc, whether it is partially or entirely, then he most likely fucked up because he’s not above that).

About UT

Again, I’ll try not to ramble, because it’s one of these things that appear easy to catch on when you look at what Sensei implied about his character’s agenda up until now, but it’s just from my own opinion as always.

So to quote myself: “it is most likely the results of him having a fucked up existence overall, which led to desperation and to him acting terribly” and, maybe I should have precised from the get go, but I include his obvious enjoyment of (frankly) horrible events as a part of “him acting terribly”.

I do think that the mad scientist vibe was a façade too, just like the eccentric creepy mortician was at least partially an act, that is until ch105 when it was implied that he apparently had a real reason to have said the following:

because the Phantomhive family (and thus Ciel’s survival) appears to really (emotionally) matter to him (and even if the reason behind that is simple selfishness, it’s at least one motivation behind his agenda).

Human vs Demon for their origin on the aspect of Seb vs UT just dictates that UT’s past led him to become what he is now (it’s not to be seen as an excuse but as an explanation/ascertainment), while Seb is the way he is because it’s his nature, so as I said in my previous reblog, comparing them on this doesn’t really lead to anything relevant in my opinion.
It’s regarding their agenda however that a comparison can be made, because I agree with UT that the only thing that sets them apart is their goal towards Ciel.

Overall my point is: referring to UT as a chaotic character is not wrong per se, because he is really going by his own rules, however I think some of his motivations are defined and were hinted at before in the story (which isn’t always the case with chaotic characters).
Tragic or not however, I think we will have to decide once we know more about his past, because UT will probably remain a mysterious character until then.

As for him being desperate, this is again just my opinion but he deserted 50 years ago. Granted that we don’t know what he was up to all this time, I find it odd that he’d start going on several insane rampages after Vincent’s death, the contract and the Queen being up to shady plans (when we know he doesn’t really like her), for the timing to be a coincidence.

Maybe I should have just said that, since he probably has nothing left to lose besides Ciel’s soul to Seb, it’s possibly the reason he’s going all out now, especially if he’s after something in particular where the Queen is concerned.
I may be wrong but it’s just that I doubt he used to constantly go to such extreme for his goals, which is why I tend to qualify this as him possibly being desperate.

Look, I’m not saying that the fandom doesn’t have UT-apologists, because clearly some exist and I also agree that Yana-sensei’s writing has its issues in sometimes being vague, but so far I like the Seb => Ciel <= UT plot dynamic.

Finally about UT during the twins’ captivity: I really think you are being slightly unfair yes, haha, if just because there are so many things we still don’t know about that one month => we don’t know how Tanaka managed to escape the (possibly already burning) manor and reach the hospital while still alive, we don’t know what Frances did during that one month, so I think it’s natural that whatever UT was up to is still unknown for now.

Personally I don’t doubt that UT, Frances, Alexis and possibly Klaus and Diedrich really tried to locate the twins by any means possible since their bodies weren’t found in the burnt manor, but the culprits were probably clever enough not to leave any clue.
But we’ll see that for sure when it’s going to be addressed. Finally…

about Seb and Ciel

Rest assured, I do not think either that Seb “raised Ciel to be evil”, precisely because of ch14 that you mentioned and his little exchange with Frances. In fact I don’t think that Ciel is evil, but that’s another debate.

However, while Seb certainly taught Ciel important things in order for him to learn about the world he was evolving in and to fit in, I do think that he’s one to enjoy watching Ciel occasionally suffer, if just because that’s how he “cultivates” Ciel’s soul.

Seb sees humans as insects, I hope you don’t disagree on that, but that doesn’t stop him from being interested in how they think and how they act, thus it makes sense that he’d enjoy his “butler game” with Ciel too and that he’d support him/give him advice, while still enjoying whenever Ciel is damning his soul more and more.

There, I didn’t address everything, but I think it should cover most of what our initial disagreement seemed to have been based on. Obviously you don’t have to answer (publicly or privately), but I certainly did appreciate knowing the full depth over just your initial answer to that first Anon. :))

midnight-in-town:

So recently I was thinking… besides the fact that UT gave Ciel an advice that he failed to understand, I’m really wondering if UT’s words in this scene comes from UT the Shinigami, who watched so many records as well as Claudia and Vincent that he recognized when Ciel was about to do the same mistake, or rather from UT’s own life experience back before he killed himself?

I think I might have mentioned before that considering how…

…UT is actually very good at fighting (+ how Yana said that Shinigamis aren’t particularly stronger than normal humans), it probably doesn’t just come from the training Shinigamis go through before starting to work, meaning that he might have been a skilled fighter back when he was still alive.

So, just maybe, “you only come to realize it when you can no longer support yourself” is not just implying that he watched many people do the same mistake as Ciel over the years but also that it’s something that he experienced and failed to realize back when he was still alive as well…?

And in that case, who knows if “because you possess such great power, you continue to forget more and more the weight of the irretrievable” is not partly the reason why he ended up killing himself?

Totally bringing this post back because the whole thing is so ironic I’m kinda dying.

I mean, UT who (on top of killing himself) literally committed a bloody massacre on the Campania gave Ciel advice…

about taking care of his soul.

So let’s say that (as I proposed above) UT possibly killed himself a looong time ago because he too realized about “the weight of the irretrievable” in his life only when he could “no longer support himself”, well, honestly?
It seems the “weight of the irretrievable” concept totally got thrown out of the window when the Campania arc happened.

In other words, either UT learnt nothing from all that he experienced, or he’s just so far gone now that he doesn’t give a single care anymore.

Considering what he said about warning Ciel and the Watchdogs before him, I’d say that it’s more likely to be the latter, which means that he can act as the worst asshole on Earth (Campania arc +++) and it will not become a burden hanging over his head, probably because he’s in such a state that he hardly has anything to lose anymore. ://

It’s true, right? The whole Phantomhive family is dead (although he’s trying to bring them back) except for Ciel who sold his soul to a demon. It seems a lot of his friends are dead. His soul is damned since he killed himself and then deserted. So it’s probably why he’s going all out now and acts terribly.

Still, it’s rather hypocritical and ironic of him to give Ciel an advice he stopped following a while ago, but I guess it can’t be helped. I wonder if Sensei will ever give us details about his backstory…

hey but if Undertaker is Frances’s father I can’t begin to imagine how she must feel to have as a dad someone who killed so many people even if it wasn’t directly done by his hand. I hope for her she doesn’t know about him being her dad or something, because otherwise that totally sucks and I’d feel terrible if I was her.

midnight-in-town:

my-lady-no-further:

midnight-in-town:

Hello :3 Yeah, I definitely agree with you Anon and that’s why I really doubt that UT ever was daddy of the year, if the theory that he is Cedric is correct of course (or well, if he was, then it’s hard to believe right now).

In fact, it doesn’t even matter if he’s Cedric or not, because it’s selfish of him anyway to bring some members of our!Ciel’ and Frances’ family back from the dead, when it’s for sure going to make them feel horrible if he succeeds.

Look at the twin, we don’t even know yet if UT holds any responsibility for the current arc, although it’s very possible he does, but Lizzie felt constantly miserable for at least two months already…

and it’s probably going to be our!Ciel’s turn very soon.

Let’s just say that it’s UT’s duality as a character, his devotion and selfishness completely clash, so I sure wouldn’t want to be in our!Ciel’s and Frances’ shoes either if he ever manages to bring back more than just the twin (which I hope he won’t, really).

But anyway, I have no idea what Frances knows or doesn’t know about UT in the first place, I just doubt that they’d get along even if he wasn’t trying to bring back the dead. xD Don’t worry though, I think Frances had a good parental figure in her life…

so I’m sure she’ll manage if she’s to ever confront UT about what he’s doing.

Thanks for passing by Anon and have a nice day. 🙂

“his devotion and his selfishness completely clash” ooooh

~~This is about seem cracky but bear with me~~

It’s interesting, if we are taking the GrandpaUT theory as correct, that his “love” for his dead family is actually making things completely worse for the living AND dead. Like, if he truly loved them he’d leave them alone and let them Rest In Peace. So, it definitely seems like he’s more obsessed with having them close to him/alive, moreso than being happy.

Which, if you think, is kinda what RCiel is doing? “I’m never going to leave your side again”

Maybe RCiel got his obsessiveness from UT?? 🤔🤔

@my-lady-no-further

I definitely think that UT’s devotion to the P family (whatever the reasons are) is making things worse in most aspects (that’s why sometimes I compare him to Kelvin), except maybe when it comes to possibly being a major help towards the contract binding our!Ciel with Seb. x)

As for real!Ciel, if you’re speaking of his current behavior (ch129, ch130) it’s most likely the way he was brought back (with the “episode” method?) that emphasized his obsessive side from childhood for me.

However I do agree that his obsessive side that we saw already in the flashback might be a family trait, I mean Ed is also rather… attached to his sister (although it’s not expressed in a similar grim way as real!Ciel with our!Ciel, at least for now) so who knows. 🙂
Real!Ciel definitely was an obsessive type of person, that much we could see from early on, so it might be something he inherited from someone in the family indeed (be it from UT if he’s the grandfather or even from his mom’s side, I mean, look at Ann -_-).

I also agree that if UT loved the people he wants to bring back, the best would be for him to let them rest in peace, without mentioning not bothering those people’s family either. That’s his problem though, he’s just… clinging because he’s selfish and desperate (and I say that as a big fan of his).

Thanks for reading!

@kajuned Sorry, I’m not sure who you meant by Anna (Ann/Red?), but yes obviously there is no guarantee at all. 🙂 (and @my-lady-no-further: it might interest you!)

All I’m saying is that the “obsessive sibling” pattern may be random or something that Yana wrote on purpose, since it seems there is one in almost every sibling pair of the family (though it’s not for the same reason/expressed the same way):

Rachel & Ann => Ann
real!Ciel & our!Ciel => real!Ciel
Edward & Lizzie => Edward (let’s hope it won’t develop into something grimmer for Ed -_-)

Unfortunately, we don’t know enough about Vincent & Frances’ sibling dynamic to know if Vincent was as protective of his younger sibling as his son and nephew are (it is a headcanon of mine though), but generally they seem to have managed much better so… eh. xD

Anyway, I’m definitely one to see real!Ciel’s behavior as being… possibly pathological (even from childhood, I mean), but I can understand not everyone considering the same idea and I do agree that his behavior isn’t completely similar to UT’s.

For UT, it is mainly based on probably living a complicated/tragic existence and on desperation for me (what you said)…

whereas for real!Ciel, it seems to have been latent from very early on…

…and this is why I see it as closer to the behavior Ann showed (because she didn’t simply become mad after losing her family; in the first place she could never move on from her obsession over Vincent, in my opinion).

Anyway, I guess we’ll see, but thanks for your input! 🙂

Hi Anon! And OMG, you make a great point, although I do have to say that I disagree about Vincent since personally I can’t blame him for being murdered.

In fact, he seems to have been a good dad in my opinion…

it’s just that his character remains rather mysterious and hard to read in general, but he certainly wasn’t on the same scale as the others, since he at least made sure his sons wouldn’t be left alone should something happen to him.

Obviously he did miscalculate but still, A+ for trying in my case.

Otherwise I agree about Tanaka and Alexis, they totally rock (special mention to Tanaka tho’, since Vincent and Frances weren’t even his kids)!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Anon, I hope you’ll have a nice day! ^3^

hey but if Undertaker is Frances’s father I can’t begin to imagine how she must feel to have as a dad someone who killed so many people even if it wasn’t directly done by his hand. I hope for her she doesn’t know about him being her dad or something, because otherwise that totally sucks and I’d feel terrible if I was her.

my-lady-no-further:

midnight-in-town:

Hello :3 Yeah, I definitely agree with you Anon and that’s why I really doubt that UT ever was daddy of the year, if the theory that he is Cedric is correct of course (or well, if he was, then it’s hard to believe right now).

In fact, it doesn’t even matter if he’s Cedric or not, because it’s selfish of him anyway to bring some members of our!Ciel’ and Frances’ family back from the dead, when it’s for sure going to make them feel horrible if he succeeds.

Look at the twin, we don’t even know yet if UT holds any responsibility for the current arc, although it’s very possible he does, but Lizzie felt constantly miserable for at least two months already…

and it’s probably going to be our!Ciel’s turn very soon.

Let’s just say that it’s UT’s duality as a character, his devotion and selfishness completely clash, so I sure wouldn’t want to be in our!Ciel’s and Frances’ shoes either if he ever manages to bring back more than just the twin (which I hope he won’t, really).

But anyway, I have no idea what Frances knows or doesn’t know about UT in the first place, I just doubt that they’d get along even if he wasn’t trying to bring back the dead. xD Don’t worry though, I think Frances had a good parental figure in her life…

so I’m sure she’ll manage if she’s to ever confront UT about what he’s doing.

Thanks for passing by Anon and have a nice day. 🙂

“his devotion and his selfishness completely clash” ooooh

~~This is about seem cracky but bear with me~~

It’s interesting, if we are taking the GrandpaUT theory as correct, that his “love” for his dead family is actually making things completely worse for the living AND dead. Like, if he truly loved them he’d leave them alone and let them Rest In Peace. So, it definitely seems like he’s more obsessed with having them close to him/alive, moreso than being happy.

Which, if you think, is kinda what RCiel is doing? “I’m never going to leave your side again”

Maybe RCiel got his obsessiveness from UT?? 🤔🤔

@my-lady-no-further

I definitely think that UT’s devotion to the P family (whatever the reasons are) is making things worse in most aspects (that’s why sometimes I compare him to Kelvin), except maybe when it comes to possibly being a major help towards the contract binding our!Ciel with Seb. x)

As for real!Ciel, if you’re speaking of his current behavior (ch129, ch130) it’s most likely the way he was brought back (with the “episode” method?) that emphasized his obsessive side from childhood for me.

However I do agree that his obsessive side that we saw already in the flashback might be a family trait, I mean Ed is also rather… attached to his sister (although it’s not expressed in a similar grim way as real!Ciel with our!Ciel, at least for now) so who knows. 🙂
Real!Ciel definitely was an obsessive type of person, that much we could see from early on, so it might be something he inherited from someone in the family indeed (be it from UT if he’s the grandfather or even from his mom’s side, I mean, look at Ann -_-).

I also agree that if UT loved the people he wants to bring back, the best would be for him to let them rest in peace, without mentioning not bothering those people’s family either. That’s his problem though, he’s just… clinging because he’s selfish and desperate (and I say that as a big fan of his).

Thanks for reading!