Awww ❤ ❤ ❤ Thank you for the very sweet message Anon-chan!
I also really love the Uta = OEK theory, in all its many versions actually. 😀 And I agree with you, I am choosing to see this as being unanswered rather than denied, especially considering that Sensei did so many artworks of Uta over the years. So I really think something was up with him and Sensei actually enjoyed the idea very much, but then… well something happened. :3
It’s not the only theory that was left unanswered, without mentioning all the biology-related questions I still have, but I’ll keep having my opinion on these topics as headcanons. :))
OMG good point about Itori’s feelings though! I explained to another Anon why I thought these were likely to exist way before the last chapter surprinsingly confirmed it, but you are 100% accurate…
It’s definitely some kind of confirmation to all these Uta theories! Ahh, thank you for sharing it with me Anon, it totally makes my day!! 😀
Honestly if Sensei ever decides to make a spin-off about 100 years ago (to answer about the Washuu family…
or even the Clowns and ghoul biology in general), I’ll be here. 🙂 I hope you’ll join me if this happens, Anon!
As for Kuroshitsuji and Berserk, no worries I’ll be there. 🙂 Don’t hesitate to pass by to chat or if you’ve got anything on your mind. I have a Berserk post coming up that I wanted to do for a long time but since it’s kinda a crack theory I’ve refrained from writing it till now. xD
Thanks again for passing by, for the nice words and sharing your thoughts Anon! ^3^ I really appreciate it and I hope we’ll discuss more in the future! ❤
Have a lovely day!
Hey Anon! Thanks, I’m glad so many people agree that this is a cool theory, haha! ^3^ (it may not be a theory anymore tho’, thanks Itori and Anon above)
I don’t think you’re in denial, in fact I agree with what @sentrakk proposed here, in the sense that another addition to the story remains possible, due to a lot of plot threads being left hanging (like the Uta theories for example).
I just am not sure that it should be a sequel is all, because Kaneki’s story is indeed over and it could be a difficult read if Sensei were to keep pushing in this direction. Of course, it could still be a sequel with a different protagonist: if that’s the case, I’d personally be interested in Kurona’s travels, Takizawa or even where Akira and Amon possibly left.
More than anything though, if we were to argue that Sensei might one day decide to add another part to his story, personally I’d like a prequel (kinda like he did with TG: Jack & Arima), mostly because going back to 100 years ago would give us a lot of answers about all the relevant topics I was super fond of (they’re mentioned above). xD
Focusing on world building is one thing I particularly like in complex series: it’s something that Sensei tried to do with ghoul biology, the Washuus, V, the sunlit garden, sunlit society, the mention of other countries besides Japan… but in the end, just like many other parts, Sensei couldn’t finish what he started.
I don’t blame him and I’m not bitter, because I could sense it coming for a while even if I would have loved to be proved wrong, but at some point between the complex world building and Kaneki’s own complex story, I think Sensei just got tired, which is why :Re ended the way it did.
So in my opinion, the way he finished :Re definitely left some room for a possible addition (prequel, side story, sequel) if one day he decides to tackle this again. This day might never come, but the possibility does exist.
One thing I don’t get is that the Washuus are the ones who allied with the old CCG to take the One Eyed Washuu down 100 years ago
and then they created V when the second OEG of the timeline showed up??
It was even around the same time as (or just before) they developed quinques for human investigators:
So when did the change of power take place? When did the Washuus become a part of V (as Furuta explained in ch101) and when did V start having the upper hand when they were initially supposed to be the Washuus’ creation?
Unless V really existed before the Washuus, but then it would contradict some stuff that was said in previous chapters, I’m just ????? lost?
EDIT: never mind, @linkspooky pointed out to me that we’re probably supposed to read the scene as followed
This little part that Kaiko is thinking…
meaning that he’s simply still super mad that his pal Kuzen left V behind for Ukina and Eto all these years ago.
TL;DR the Washuus still created V in order to defeat the second OEG of the timeline who threatened to overthrow the CCG just after WWII:
now if I could just know who this gal/dude is that’d be nice
I’ve also been thinking that the Washuu became a part of V around when the second OEK appeared. Maybe V is an amalgamation of various influential families, primarily consisting of ghouls. As a part of V these families are producing soldiers in the form of half-humans for the organization. One hint suggesting that there might be other Washuu-like families elsewhere, is Shao. She’s a half-human who was born in Taiwan, but was sent to Japan’s CCG from an external source. I hope that makes sense.
@donatoporpora yeah, excellent point about Hsiao or even Germany, which has always been referred to as the #1 partner of the CCG (and both organizations belonging in V could explain this partnership). We also still don’t know why Donato (who is Russian) was hanging around in Japan (not that there has to be a specific reason but eh).
That’s why the idea of a part 3 targeting a more international scale of TG’s world always sounded interesting (iirc Middle East was also mentioned by Yoshimura and there was also the link between the Rosewald and Tsukiyama families), even if I doubt that it’s ever going to happen by now.
In the end, it depends if V is really just Washuu/Japan-centered or if there might be a real international side to it (Taiwan and Germany at least) and I can envision both possibilities honestly. For example, maybe Hsiao could simply be born because at some point Tsuneyoshi visited Taiwan and had a fling with her mom, which is why she then joined the sunlit garden. Just like it could be what you said. 🙂
What we were told is that initially V seemed to be sunlit garden-only, but then they slowly opened their ranks to other strong ghouls (like Yoshimura)
which is why V now represents an organization that is encompassing the Washuu family and the sunlit garden (and why they can afford to get rid of the Washuus).
So maybe the same thing happened internationally, as in, the Washuus created V around WWII but then V slowly expanded over the years and ended having affiliations in other countries (Germany, Taiwan…).
Since it really seems the Washuus created V to defeat the second OEG of the timeline though, then I’ll stick with this timeline until we’re given more info. :3
cries because the family tree of the new chapter wasn’t translated
seriously tho’, what the fuck did they do? Tsuneyoshi mentioned his ancestors so I’m still convinced that it is at least related to the conflict with this guy…
since he was a OEG, thus probably stronger than any other Washuu.
The fact that the One Eyed Washuu was a hybrid was the reason he was probably disregarded by the whole family (and the reason he hated and rebelled against them), but at the same time him being stronger was also the reason they helped/needed the first CCG organization to take him down.
So maybe that inspired these ancestors and they realized that not just being 100% kakuja but also having a hybrid blood was the key to being even stronger? But why would the main family not be concerned by the fast aging in that case?
I just can’t imagine how they “became more human” though, if this wasn’t solely through hybrid reproduction? Or is it what the sunlit society was researching about (Kanou did say that they were “evil”)?
Itori is a
fascinating shadow of a character. Almost always away from the narrative with
very little central focus she does bring us new information each time we get to
meet her. Not only that, like the rest of the clowns she seems to have found
value in being on the sidelines, then stepping onto the centre stage not to
alleviate any boredom, but to not go mad.
But why
would Itori go mad? A ghoul that we know so little of yet someone who dares to
give us so much information about the world as a whole… I’ve got an
interesting theory about Itori’s lost innocence, so let me make an assumption
first and then try to back up my thesis.
The theory
in question?
Itori used to be a breeding machine like Rize,
became pregnant with a one-eyed ghoul and that child died in her womb.
This meta post, however, is a character study
of Itori as a whole, to further explain why I do believe she was in a similar
situation to Rize, why she might have gotten pregnant with a half-ghoul and lost the child and why I believe that she sticks with the Clowns because the
One Eyed King of old (Uta) saved her.
The first time we meet Itori, she is sitting
in the Helter Skelter bar. The bar’s name is hereby a reference to a song by
the Beatles of the same name, whose meaning can be summarised as “using the
symbol of a helter skelter as a ride from the top to the bottom; the rise and
fall of the Roman Empire – and this was the fall, the demise”. It also, in its
lyrics, very clearly talks of a woman:
“Look out,
helter skelter
She’s coming down fast
Yes, she is
Yes, she is
Coming down fast”
Itori is a Ghoul whose backstory we do not know, but
who we can be certain of has suffered much and lost her innocent outlook on
life through it, something that she tries to feel an illusion of by sticking
close to Yomo.
One of the first things that Itori realises is that
Kaneki still holds an innocence that she has already lost. She also comments on
him being the “first one eyed ghoul she has seen”. It is extremely important to
know that Itori knows way, way more than she says.She’s playing coy
all the time, to seem approachable and normal. At the same time she gives
Kaneki hints upon hints, as if indulging in the fact that she can toy around
with him as much as she pleases.
Her comment about the “other one eyed ghoul” becomes a
lot more eerie if we take the Uta as the One Eyed King theory into
consideration and if that is true, then her remark can be seen as a direct question
towards him.She looks his way, too, despite addressing Yomo instead. At the
time of this Chapter (36 of the original Tokyo Ghoul) though, we simply think
she is referring to Eto as the other one eyed ghoul. Given the fact that Furuta
was the one who pushed the beam onto Rize however, and Furuta was/is a clown no
less, would make it lot more intriguing were she to talk about Uta instead,
especially given the fact that the clowns have been looking at this whole
spectacle for a long, long time.
I mean, she gives Kaneki so many hints to chew
on!
The meat of this theory comes down to Itori being the
one to introduce us to the biology behind One Eyed Ghouls in the first place,
though. Because Itori tells Kaneki what happens when ghoul and human genes mix,
how extremely unlikely such a pregnancy is and how risky it is for both child
and mother.
She also tells us this:
Itori then goes on to claim it all as nothing but a
rumour, looking at Uta while ranting about possibilities, while affirming that she has never heard of happy stories concerning one eyed ghouls. If she was
used like a breeding machine like Rize was, living through countless rape
attempts to bear kids that could grow up in the sunlit garden, maybe even being
made to bear a half-ghoul child, then she certainly wouldn’t be in favour of
any stories concerning one eyed ghouls.
If Uta is
indeed the One Eyed King and the one who freed Itori (if she is older than she
looks, like Roma) from the claws of the Washuu, then her attachment to Uta is
also made clear. It should be known that Itori knows a whole lot about Rize
herself, too, to the point that she gives Kaneki the clue of ‘Rize’ not
existing (under that name, at least). We know that Rize stems from the Sunlit
Garden and that Furuta is the reason for her escape. No wonder, then, that Itori knows a whole lot
about Rize.
(Do note
that all of this takes place in the first half of the original Tokyo Ghoul! And
Itori has already let us in on so many facts: Ghoul biology, she leads Kaneki
onto the trail of Tsukiyama as the Gourmet, she knows who Furuta is, she knows
who Rize is, she most likely refers to Uta as a One Eyed Ghoul. To put this
into perspective, this all happens before Kaneki is being tortured by Yamori.)
The next
time Itori becomes relevant is when she shares information about Kanou, of all
people. She reveals to Kaneki that he used to be an autopsy doctor who worked
for the CCG. This is also where she lets Kaneki know that he seems to get a
grasp on the value of information. Considering the fact that Itori is a clown,
one who sends Ken on wild goose chases, it isn’t wrong to assume that, as
someone who values information, Itori gets a sense of almost morbid fascination
of seeing others learn more about the world that she inhabits. Remember, she
knows about Rize, and Furuta, and most likely the Garden. She knows so, so much
and has no way to share this knowledge with the world freely. Seeing others
gain information that she herself holds close is not only entertaining, it
gives someone like her purpose when there is none that she finds in herself.
Because as
she says in the most recent chapter herself, she’s seen a lot, she’s heard a
lot. She knows exactly that the views of a Ghoul are not important to humans as
a whole. The world is against Ghouls, so it is against her. And it is
entertaining and oh so stimulating to see a man made ghoul go on a wild goose
chase trying to learn more about her world.
Keeping this in mind her advice to
Kaneki that he should take Nico’s story about Aogiri tree and the One Eyed King
with a grain of salt, because free information should always be looked at with
a keen eye, makes triple sense if she is old enough to know what really went
down with the One Eyed King back in the day.
Kaneki then
leaves Itori after she has told him that a rabbit masked ghoul has been
murdering people. But that he should take this story with a grain of salt, too.
The next
time we meet Itori is at the end of Tokyo Ghoul, where she is celebrating a
hollow evening of fun with her fellow clowns. This is also the moment she if
officially outed as being a clown and having the last laugh (within the tragedy
that is Tokyo Ghoul).
The next
time we meet Itori after that isn’t until Chapter 148 “Where is the Stone” of
Tokyo Ghoul :re!
Here she riles the Ghouls up by suggesting to watch until the
end to honour their King.; because he saved them by becoming a monster. Not
only that, she re-iterates that humans hurt them. Itori is, of course, wrong
here. Kaneki become dragon out of a selfish wish to protect Touka at all costs
when he had already railroaded himself into despair and while her words should
be taken with a grain of salt, Itori despises humans, which is made entirely
clear in the most recent Chapter (Chapter 169).
Itori does
not state this just to rile up these Ghouls to have fun; she does so because
she fully believes that Ghouls are not loved, so you should honour those who
save you by sticking with them to the bitter end, even if that end is bloody
and nothing but ungraceful bloodshed. Because if you bleed, if you hurt and
hurt others, you can feel warmth, you can feel alive, you can change something
in the world even if this change is nothing but negative. You have to watch on
the sidelines until you have to play the Fool on the stage yourself to keep yourself
from going mad.
So, here’s what I think about Itori:
She is older than she looks, similar
to Roma
If Uta is the One Eyed King of old,
then she sticks to him because he most likely saved her
Similarly, she sticks to Yomo because Yomo still has the innocence that she couldn’t hold onto
She knows who Rize is and is
interested in her because she has probably suffered similar trauma
Considering her knowledge of ghoul
biology, perhaps she got pregnant with a one eyed ghoul, who she then lost due
to the risks of ghoul-human pregnancies
Killing off the touken bab would make sense as a punishment for Kaneki eating the Oggai but not for Touka, she hasn’t done anything this past arc that would warrant her kids life as an equivalent exchange (because no, being apathetic about a cause isn’t that extreme and her choice to save her husband doesn’t strike me as a Yamori-esque CHOOOOOOOOOOOOoose parallel).
With the garden arc revving up as being centerstage in the final arc, I can’t imagine why having a potential hybrid baby as a plot device wouldn’t be a thing.
We’re supposed to worry, but I think the whole hybrid vigor concept surrounding why Eto is so strong might extend to Pleasure-chan as well, with RC cells acting as a healing factor for mom and for the bab. Itori’s lied before and Arima said one-eyes are rare, a third naturally born one-eyed ghoul might still have some secrets surrounding their existence.
While I don’t think Itori particularly lied on this subject, since her words follow Arima’s about OEGs and it seems to be a sensitive subject for her, I
otherwise
agree. 🙂
The topic of hybrid pregnancy is to be linked back to the previous OEGs in the timeline, to the Sunlit Garden, and it’s a way to introduce a brighter future about a world that would allow hybrid children to finally belong, since other mixed couples in TG might end up having hybrid babies too (looking at NishiKimi in particular).
Besides, even if one could see Touka’s miscarriage as a possible punishment for Kaneki, getting him and Touka to blame themselves for the loss of their kid seems rather counterproductive on the aspect of more positive development for their relationship. I say they had enough trials already, and it’s not even over as long as V still stands.
Besides, the baby is one of the three ways Touka has to finally convince herself that she is indeed a very beautiful person (the other ways to stop being fatalistic being finding out about what happened to her father and confronting Yoriko in :Re).
Right! It sounds like they are mostly human, but still have that extremely powerful kakuja “blood” running through them.
It’s been hinted that there are people much farther above the Washuu, and in a way are being used by the higher-ups in return for wealth and political power. After all, the Washuu are only a subset of V, not the other way around.
Interesting social study, isn’t it? How a powerful family can despise and feel ashamed of their origins, but exploit themselves and others who share it all the same…
I have to admit that initially, I was confused about why Arima told Kaneki that the Washuus/V wanted to be “more human” in ch83, but I guess what Rize said now explains why V decided to get rid of them recently and how they mostly succeeded.
The main Washuu family having a “powerful kakuja blood” but being mostly humans…
in other words having maybe special Rc cells but otherwise human biological features might explain their strength but also why we never saw their kagune.
“V” was initially created by the Washuus to annihilate the second OEG of the timeline, the one who almost destroyed the CCG in the past, but it seems that the organization ended up backfiring against their creators and, if it’s indeed because the power balance tilted over the years, I’d really be interested in knowing how V is different from the main Washuu family, biologically speaking.
I guess we’re eventually coming to that, but it’s lifting something off my shoulders to possibly understand what Arima was trying to say in ch83 + maybe this means that the ghoul parent of the children in the sunlit garden could be the moms? Hence why Iyo “didn’t understand” Matsuri’s job because she’s a ghoul and he’s an investigator (not sure tho because a few things don’t add up, like Furuta implying that Rize was supposed to be r*aped by Tsuneyoshi and co…).
EDIT: rethinking about this, since Yoshitoki showed two kakugan and Matsuri apparently healed from that cut in the head, I really wonder if the ghoul parents of Arima and co are the moms…
Finally, it explains Kanou’s words to the Yasuhisa twins about himself and their father:
if V encompasses the Washuus and the Washuus were ghouls who wanted to become more human, to possibly follow the example of the fearful One Eyed Washu who was a hybrid, then the ghoulification research that Kanou mentioned (which so far is about creating ghouls, not humans, probably by the sunlit society) must have been for the sake of V getting more and more powerful, not the main Washuu family.
It seems it’s finally all adding up. Now what’s left to know is how the Clowns are tying into all of this (since Furuta chose to go to them for a plot-relevant reason surely) +…
why Hide was apparently trying to avoid the Washuus.
real interesting talk there, “Rize”.
tbh though, I wonder if the first OEK…
…who, despite what Matsuri implied, was probably treated like shit by his family for being different + was feared because he was way stronger, isn’t the reason the Washuus/V are trying to be “more humans” in the first place (since it’s also what Arima told Kaneki in ch83):
hence what “Rize” said about pure ghoul blood being inferior to other people who had more “human” in them in this family
In that aspect, I think maybe that’s why the Washuus were so fond of Arima, because of how strong he was even though he was a half human.
A hybrid of a human and ghoul is stronger, it doesn’t even matter if the baby turns out to be a half human (Arima) or a OEG (One Eyed Washuu), overall it’s apparently just better than being a pure ghoul.
So have I told anyone about my theory that what Nico was talking about in that scene from ch62 was related to stuff they saw/lived through in the Sunlit Garden?
If not, that’s related to this theory (you can directly scroll down to the reblog).
I personally never considered Uta and Itori could be Washuus (but I’ve read some posts about it from people who did) but it’s true I thought it was possible that they came from the Garden.
However, now that we know the Sunlit Garden is mainly the result of Tsuneyoshi’s harem (I am wondering about Hsiao though since she isn’t Japanese), I just am not so sure anymore that they were from the Garden, which complicates every theory about them, haha.
About Itori though, I just don’t see the suspicious scenes on the calendar that you’re talking about (she appeared on two days if I remember correctly)? But in any case, yeah, I really like the theory that she was a breeder because of things she said about hybrids…
…which is what we were just explained about Tsuneyoshi’s harem when you think about it (besides the fact that Tsuneyoshi does have a lot of hybrid children, even if they don’t live very long).
So maybe she was supposed to be a womb too, like Rize, but she also escaped? The OEG!Itori theory comes from the fact we only ever saw one of her kakugans in ch34, so that’s why I think the breeder/womb!Itori theory does seem more likely at this point!
Besides the breeder!Itori theory though, I also have another possibility in mind for Uta’s origins (and maybe even Itori’s, should she not be a breeder):
Ghoulification is the process so far known as turning humans into OEGs and I don’t know what the CCG did that wasso “evil”that Kanou betrayed them (to do his own ghoulification experiments) but back to Uta, the possibility exists that he is a OEG, so maybe he is the result of one of the CCG’s ghoulification experiments (that were “so evil” that the twins’ father tried to double cross the CCG and Kanou betrayed them).
That would make sense when you think about it:
we know he is apparently super strong (enough so that he was leading one of the deadliest wards when he was below 20 years old + he doesn’t use his kagune when fighting, if he really has one),
I mentioned the possibility he could be a OEG, which would explain why he would tattoo his eyes in the first place.
We know joining the Clowns’ gang and being so interested in Kaneki has to have a link with his own objectives, which are, like the rest of him, completely mysterious
And there is this scene about when the twins’ parents were killed…
This is the ghoul who killed them on V/the Washuus’ orders, and that’s what Uta looked like when he was younger…
So, ahem, maybe V/the Washuus used Uta (after an experiment of the ghoulification process) to kill the Yasuhisa parents since he was really unstable when he was younger.
On top of all that, there is all the weird stuff he can say, like in ch111, when Yomo asks him “how did you become so strong” and he goes “I don’t know about that”.
TL;DR:
About Itori: for now my main theory about her is that she was (supposed to be?) a breeder, so she probably was a part of the Garden at some point if that’s the case.
in that case, the theory that she could be a OEG is wrong indeed.
if she was a breeder/womb, that makes the crack theory that she could be disguising as Iyo (Matsuri’s wife) more likely.
About Uta: for now my main theory about him is that he underwent the (according to Kanou) “evil” ghoulification process at the hands of the CCG turning him into a OEG
in that case, he was probably the ghoul V/the Washuus used to kill Yasuhisa Nanao and his wife
he might have escaped and joined the 4th ward after killing them.
There you go, sorry for the long answer, I hope it makes sense! Please remember, these could change with new manga content.
Thanks for passing by and have a nice weekend Anon! 🙂
Look above, Anon. 🙂
If I remember correctly, it’s my very first (serious) theory about the backstories of Uta and Itori and it’s rather old, but I believe most of it still makes sense! It goes with this
Graduate of Teihou University’s Faculty of Medicine
Chief researcher at the GFG in Germany
Medical coroner at the CCG
Former professor from Kanou General Hospital
Born into a family of medical professionals, Kanou’s father was the third generation of practicing physicians. Aiming to become a doctor just like his father, he enrolled in the Faculty of Medicine at Teihou University, and graduated with excellent grades.
In his university days, Kanou was a member of the Ghoul Research Society.
After Kanou graduated he went to Germany, and joined the GFG (Ghoul Forschung Gesellschaft) (Ghoul Research Association). He worked for three years under the Adamman* Laboratory, and his research was focused on RC cell differentation, and the creation of complex structures by RC cells.
He then returned to Japan, and went to work for the CCG. As a doctor, Kanou was involved in the extraction of kakuhou and the practical application of these extracted kakuhou into quinques.
During his time there, Kanou was invited to the Sunlit Society, a research group that was under the secret jurisdiction of the Washuus. He conducted certain research involving ghouls. After, he left the bureau at the same time he resigned from that research group.
After leaving the bureau, he took over Kanou General Hospital. He continued his independent research until the day he met Furuta Nimura.
* I don’t know if Adamman (Adammahn, Adam Mahn?) is the correct spelling, but the kana is アダムマン.
Please let me know if there are any corrections I need to make.