Real!Ciel: I’m not going to scold you for lying 🙂 Rather, if anyone should accuse you of lying, I would never forgive them.
Also Real!Ciel: Hello police? My brother’s been impersonating me for the past 3 years. Here’s our address. Get that brat. Identity theft is not a joke.
Even though I initially thought that UT was calling Othello out because Othello had possibly proved in the past to have the same misguided curiosity towards humans (which is what the very original idea of UT’s BD project was initially), now I wonder if this wouldn’t rather be a Shakespeare reference?
For those who don’t know, the tragedy Othello is about a Moorish man living in Venice who’s tricked into believing that his wife is having an affair with his Lieutenant. So he kills her out of jealousy, before realizing the truth and killing himself as a result.
So if Othello in Kuroverse is supposed to be a reference to this tragedy, that’d mean our boy here became a Shinigami because he killed his wife. Meanwhile, if we’re considering that UT’s strong attachment to the Phantomhive family roots from the possibility that he had strong feelings for Claudia
and that ultimately he wants them all back because…
he doesn’t want his connection to the P family (to Claudia in particular?) to disappear
or because he promised Claudia he’d protect them all and he doesn’t want to fail his promise to her
…then I’m wondering if this isn’t what UT is referring to when he’s calling Othello out, as in, “I’m doing this out of love and you should be the last one to criticize me on the subject considering your own circumstances.”
Since some readers often have the wrong timeline in mind though, please remember that UT killed himself way before Claudia was even born and he met her after he deserted the Shinigamis, it’s not like he became a Shinigami because she died. So it’d go like this when it comes to Othello vs UT:
Othello: killed himself because he killed his wife
UT: killed himself, deserted, fell in love, lost the woman, decided to experiment about bringing back the dead
hence ch142 and UT telling Othello to back off about saying he lost his mind on the subject (sensitive subject for him and all).
TL;DR
@aroturier (as always I can’t tag you akejzbkejb I hope you’ll see this)
Honestly, at this point I think every possibility is a thing. Like:
UT could be feeling guilty about Claudia’s death despite not having done anything that led to it
just like he could be angrily denying any guilt he might feel despite having done something that ultimately led to Claudia’s death
just like he might be feeling guilty because her death is partially his fault
We don’t have enough details to reach any conclusion at the moment, so if UT’s comment in last month’s chapter was really meant to be in relation to Claudia, it has many possible explanations.
More so than guilt however, I think that UT is eaten by regrets: you don’t try to bring the dead back if you’re at peace with how the people you love died…
and in my opinion, if there is really a parallel between Claudia and the reference to Othello, then the issue for UT could be that he’s dead convinced he could have avoided her death if he had done something differently.
Again, “how” is hard to determine for now, but he did say this…
So if he warned Claudia about the burden of the Watchdog duty and either she didn’t understand (like Ciel) or refused to save herself (like Vincent?), back then it could have been the source of an argument between them.
And if he left her because he couldn’t bear to watch her destroy herself (especially if he was in love with her) and she ended up dead…
well, whether he also feels guilty or not, he’d definitely
at least
feel regretful and very intent on not having it happen again.
Bummer for him though, the same happened with Vincent, which is probably why he’s skyrocketing on the wrong road right now. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
TL;DR we don’t know what happened with Claudia, if she’s who UT meant to Othello as a source of his motivation regarding the BD project, whether he feels guilty about her death or not, but there is definitely something (if not everything) about her death that doesn’t sit right with UT.
Could simply be the fact that she died at all, or could be how she died/what led to her death. The only thing I’m reasonably sure of is that she’s the reason we’re where we are in the story right now, as far as UT’s character is concerned.
…that with Lizzie now back, we may finally be able to witness some interactions between her and the Undertaker (it’s been 27+ volumes…).
And it’s important because we know that UT cares about “the Phantomhive family”…
but we don’t know who that represents exactly.
He mentioned Vincent…
and the twins…
but we don’t know if he’d want to bring Frances and possibly her children back from the dead too, should something happen to them.
That’s why finding out about if UT includes Frances’ side of the family in the people he’d rather not lose is important, because that’d give hints about his possible identity, as well as his state of mind.
I talked about this before, but the way UT instantly declared that he liked the twins because “they’re both Phantomhives as regards [him]” in ch131 is… hard to take at face-value because:
if UT is Cedric K. Ros, then the twins are his grandkids so him instantly caring is logical and there is nothing else to say
if UT isn’t Cedric K. Ros tho’, then he automatically validated the twins “because they’re Phantomhives”, which means only because he loved Claudia or happened to find Vincent an enjoyable guy + which implies that, whatever the twins are like as their own person, he gives 0 care about and that’s meh. ://
Personally, I like to think that at least ch84…
…is enough to say that UT does see our!Ciel as a person different from his father and grandmother, but then there is ch35 which could be seen (in extreme cases) as a hint of the opposite…
so I’d like to know which one it is for sure: does UT care just because of Claudia, or does he care because he has a soft spot for all of them (whether he’s Cedric K. Ros or not)?
Hence me being really eager to see how UT acts with Lizzie, because it should be an indicator as to whether he cares or not about the Midfords and…
Should he care about Frances’ side of the family, it also implies that he should see Vincent and the twins as their own person and not as proxies for Claudia, which is a good thing (+ you can take this as another hint for the UT = Cedric theory).
Should he not care, well, I think that rules out the UT = Cedric theory + it’d also imply that UT’s attachment to the P family could just be all about Claudia and seeing proxies for her through her son and grandsons, which is… not good or healthy.
Sensei said before that UT was no villain despite the appearances, which I think is meant regarding our!Ciel’s character more than Seb’s. Nonetheless I think that it makes more likely the version that he cares and sees Claudia’s family (including Frances, Liz and Ed) as enjoyable people for different reasons.
I’d just like an official confirmation about this, since it’s a subject of debate,
as well as a big answer about UT’s characterization and a good clue about if he’ll stay in the narrative for a little while longer or not.
One last thing: whether UT cares about Frances’ side of the family or not doesn’t change the fact that he’s a selfish a**hole who should find a better way to cope about things. Sensei implied he was no villain but that doesn’t mean he’s free of guilt or that he shouldn’t change his ways.
Because UT is completely wrong about bringing back the dead thinking it will change everything about how he or Lizzie or our!Ciel feel. It’s just that also caring about Frances and her kids may just give him better odds at realizing that he messed up.
And, to add onto what I already answered you @mourninglockets, the other reason I like the idea that UT actually cares about Frances and her kids isthat the harder redemption is, the better character development will turn out to be.
Think about it, since UT is no villain, that means he’ll have to find a way to make it up to the people he cares about and whom he hurts, that is if he ever realizes that he was 100% wrong.
However, assuming he does, Ciel alone is not really a challenge in that aspect, because Ciel showed that even after the Campania and Weston arcs he still trusted the Undertaker (probably because he could guess with the lockets that UT had a special link to his family).
That’s why, should UT also care about Frances’ side of the family, that means he’d have to make it up to them too and that’s where it gets harder, not so much as far as Liz and Ed are concerned, but I doubt Frances would forgive him easily (Cedric K. Ros or not).
That’s why I favor this stance between the two. So far it seems UT really stays around because there are still Phantomhives to watch over.
So because he did some crazy shit during three arcs, if he claims to care about the Phantomhive family (even if just because of Claudia), then he’d better find a way to make it up to them properly.
He’ll just be more dedicated to doing it right for everyone if he cares about/stays and intends to protect more than just our!Ciel in my opinion, that’s all. 🙂
At the end of chapter 142, the manor becomes filled with multiple people such as officers from Scotland Yard, Abberline, Edward, and Alexis. This puts a lot of pressure on our!Ciel as he is now ‘exposed’ as being a fraud.
However, our!Ciel is not the only one this affects. With all these witnesses, it’s much harder for Sebastian to fight to his fullest potential. If he was to go full demon, it would be nearly impossible to pull off his act as this perfect human butler. It would be clear he wasn’t human, and he’s the only one really restricted like this. Undertaker doesn’t have to necessarily hide his power or strength. This isn’t to say I think he wants to fight, but this setup does limit Sebastian a bit. He can still do a lot with everyone looking, but if he wants to continue to hide his true power from the masses, he’s at a disadvantage.
Even though I initially thought that UT was calling Othello out because Othello had possibly proved in the past to have the same misguided curiosity towards humans (which is what the very original idea of UT’s BD project was initially), now I wonder if this wouldn’t rather be a Shakespeare reference?
For those who don’t know, the tragedy Othello is about a Moorish man living in Venice who’s tricked into believing that his wife is having an affair with his Lieutenant. So he kills her out of jealousy, before realizing the truth and killing himself as a result.
So if Othello in Kuroverse is supposed to be a reference to this tragedy, that’d mean our boy here became a Shinigami because he killed his wife. Meanwhile, if we’re considering that UT’s strong attachment to the Phantomhive family roots from the possibility that he had strong feelings for Claudia
and that ultimately he wants them all back because…
he doesn’t want his connection to the P family (to Claudia in particular?) to disappear
or because he promised Claudia he’d protect them all and he doesn’t want to fail his promise to her
…then I’m wondering if this isn’t what UT is referring to when he’s calling Othello out, as in, “I’m doing this out of love and you should be the last one to criticize me on the subject considering your own circumstances.”
Since some readers often have the wrong timeline in mind though, please remember that UT killed himself way before Claudia was even born and he met her after he deserted the Shinigamis, it’s not like he became a Shinigami because she died. So it’d go like this when it comes to Othello vs UT:
Othello: killed himself because he killed his wife
UT: killed himself, deserted, fell in love, lost the woman, decided to experiment about bringing back the dead
hence ch142 and UT telling Othello to back off about saying he lost his mind on the subject (sensitive subject for him and all).
we’ve watched Our!Ciel go through so many emotional breakdowns before in the manga but for some reason this one is way worse because he can’t even speak, he’s just standing there watching everyone slowly turn against him and regressing back to the shy, scared little kid he was when his brother was still alive
Hello Anon! Well, the last time we truly saw Lizzie was in ch116/117 and…
…She seemed more worried about stopping Seb from going to the labs rather than fighting against a real demon, so no, I don’t think that she knew at the time.
Of course, there is still a possibility that ever since ch117 Bravat or real!Ciel told her about Seb’s true nature (since Bravat definitely knows and real!Ciel seems to know as well that Seb is the demon who ate his soul 4 years ago), however, assuming that Lizzie is most likely seen as a pawn to hurt our!Ciel [x]…
…it would be wiser of Bravat and co not to tell her, in my opinion.
Lizzie is currently conflicted about making the right choice between her duty (real!Ciel) and her feelings (our!Ciel) [x][x] so, should Bravat tell her that our!Ciel sold his soul to a demon, she would probably be sadder at the idea of losing him and it could push her to disregard her duty in favor of her feelings.
It might not appear blatant, but I’m guessing that arguing that real!Ciel was in poor “health” is probably the argument that won Lizzie over when it comes to her running away from home:
She decided that she would be here for him, because he was in dire straits, and then she stayed because he is her rightful fiancé.
Lizzie is most likely the ace of Bravat’s side, because she definitely is the person our!Ciel cares the most about (it’s even how Bravat referred to her), which means that they can’t afford to have her changing sides. So, not telling Lizzie about Seb to keep her thinking that real!Ciel needs her the most (on top of her doing her duty) is the most logical.
Maybe she’ll know before the end of the arc though if, for instance, she changes sides and a very angry real!Ciel drops another bomb on her: the boy she loves not only lied about his identity but he also sold his soul to a demon and won’t live old.
TL;DR no, I don’t think she knows for now. 🙂
I hope it helps, have a nice weekend Anon!
Hello! It’s a very good and possible idea, though ch117 gave no hint of Elizabeth feeling particularly angry at Sebastian in my opinion, except maybe for…
this scene.
You can hardly even say that she meant to kill him though: she knew he was strong so she attacked him because he was trespassing and her only reason for doing so was because she was being Gandalf 2.0 “I shall not let you pass”.
In my opinion, all she wanted was to protect the lab, most likely because she was told that it was very important to real!Ciel’s survival (since it has all the blood and all), but maybe you’re right and the “you dare ask why” part is supposed to hint that real!Ciel/Bravat told her that Seb “did something to real!Ciel, 4 years ago”.
It’s possible, thanks for sharing your thoughts Anon! 🙂 Have a nice day.
Hey Anon, as I was saying just above, frankly I’m not sure about “killing intents”. First of all, she was obviously very confused, but for me the reason she attacked Seb was
because she was aware of how strong he was
and she did it to protect the labs, for real!Ciel’s sake.
It doesn’t mean that she doesn’t care about our!Ciel anymore, it just means that at the time she thought she had no choice when she took the decision to be by real!Ciel’s side (even if we know that it makes her unhappy). Without attacking Sebastian in order to stop him, he surely would have wasted no time discarding her to the side to go to the labs. And again I just don’t think she knew he was a demon in ch117 because she didn’t show fear for her sake, which she should have if she had known he was a demon.
Anyway, Anon, Lizzie is bound not to be friendly with Sebastian until the end of the manga. She might not know about his nature or the contract with our!Ciel right now but, narratively speaking, she’s bound to know at some point and, when she finds out, she won’t trust or like Sebastian anymore.
TL;DR I think she attacked Seb in ch117 because her goal at the time was “protecting the labs” (and thus helping real!Ciel by doing so). She might have been told that Seb did something to real!Ciel 4 years ago, but I don’t think she was in to kill him, that she knows he’s a demon or about the contract.
Also Lizzie definitely still cares about our!Ciel. 😉
I hope it helps, have a nice day!
It’s okay Anon 🙂 I see which scene you’re talking about:
How about what the second Anon said above as an explanation then? Lizzie doesn’t know that Seb is a demon or about the contract but Real!Ciel told her…
…that Seb did something to him 4 years ago, without telling her the entire truth.
Telling Lizzie that Seb is a demon or that our!Ciel sold his soul to him wouldn’t be the wisest move to make
(in my opinion)
for reasons I explained in the first post. However, if Lizzie is really a pawn to use against our!Ciel, then she’s definitely emotionally manipulated as well.
So, real!Ciel (or Bravat) could have said that Seb did something to him, or even worse, that our!Ciel allied with Seb in order to get rid of him (which is a hugely distorted version of the truth), which would explain why Lizzie is so heartbroken and depressed.
Think about it, it might not be just the fact that our!Ciel lied that’s making Lizzie so sad: I wouldn’t be surprised if real!Ciel had distorted the truth to make her choose his side, since she’s the best person to hurt our!Ciel (here’s a friendly reminder that the twin is a villain by the way [x]).
Back to your question, with this theory and her being confused and emotionally exhausted in mind, maybe she almost went for a kill then. It’s definitely possible, all I’m saying is that I doubt her heart was 100% into it, due to her being completely lost as to what to do and feel for a long time.
Overall, the interpretation of ch117 depends on what exactly Bravat/Real!Ciel told Lizzie about our!Ciel and Seb. Nonetheless, I hope this explanation works a little better for you?
Have a nice day Anon. 🙂
Post from last year but reblogging because on point with the latest chapter.
I knew there was something about Othello mentioning Will by name that really struck me, and the more I think about it, the less I think it’s just to do with reconfirming Will’s position as collecting all the info on Undertaker. In fact, I’d like to ask… Why did Othello specify Will in the way that he did when it was Undertaker he was speaking to?
What I mean is, there was no need to identify Will by name. He could simply have said “one of the managers”. And what really gets me… Is that Othello doesn’t even explain who Will is. Now, four of the people in the room are acquainted with Will (and Snake is aware of him under the pseudonym “Suit”, but I don’t think it likely he knows Will’s real name), but it isn’t these four that Othello is speaking to. He doesn’t say “the London manager, dear Will”, “one of my associates, dear Will”, he just says “dear Will”. Perhaps it’s just the way Othello is, he doesn’t tend to explain things properly when he doesn’t feel an urgent need to, and I could be overthinking things here, but even taking that into account…
I can come to two possible conclusions:
One, that it is important for us the readers to be aware it was William who told Othello about UT, and/or…….
Two, that Othello expects UT to know who Will isalready
midnight-in-town 