Well, I’ll copy-paste my own tags from here then Anon, because I find they’re pretty self-explanatory:
And also a little something else…
Listen Anon, if Frances really didn’t care about her nephews in the past or now, then…
Lizzie wouldn’t have been betrothed to them and exposed to danger till now (especially for the last 4 years),
Frances wouldn’t have shown up for Ciel’s 13th birthday and taken him hunting, so that he wouldn’t be all alone or bored on the third death anniversary of the massacre
and she wouldn’t have told Lizzie to offer him to join them for a three week vacation, which was supposed to be the Campania arc, because she found he was working a lot.
There aren’t a lot of outstanding adults in Ciel’s life, so let’s avoid dragging down the few who exist, okay? :3
Hope it makes more sense this time. Have a nice weekend.
Hello Anon! Well, considering Frances’ discussion with Vincent…
…it seems indeed that it’s best if there is a spare to the Watchdog’s heir, just in case something happens.
I wouldn’t say that it’s impossible for Frances to have been Vincent’s spare back during their childhood however, even as a woman, because…
Claudia being the Watchdog probably was a special case
in the first place, as there might have been no man to take on the title, which is why Victoria probably allowed her to take it on instead, as we debated here:
“if there were no surviving legitimate male relatives, the title would become extinct… Unless someone got a parliamentary and royal warrant to pass it on to the daughter.“
Following this logic, if Victoria had given the agreement to Claudia for the Watchdog’s duty, it doesn’t seem illogical to think that Frances was her mother’s second heir, the spare in case something happened to Vincent, the rightful heir. That’s even why she’s probably as strong as she is…
because she was trained to take on the Watchdog duty too, just in case.
Crack theory time (that I share with @aroturier): if our!Ciel hadn’t come back 4 years ago, we were wondering if the Queen wouldn’t have passed the Watchdog duty
on
to Frances (aka to the Midford family).
I hope it answers your question, have a nice day Anon!
Bringing this back because I really think that the reason people believe Frances was being harsh in ch132 is fallacious and this is bothering me.
Considering once again that Vincent’s predecessor was a woman because of special circumstances in the family, it must not have mattered to Claudia that she gave birth to a son and a daughter. That’s why she most likely raised them similarly: for their own protection but also should they both end up carrying the burden of the Watchdog duty.
So Frances saying what she said in ch 132 is not only her being worried about our!Ciel surviving as the Watchdog (and frankly she’s not wrong), but also her speaking as a first-hand witness: because the reason she’s so strong and has trained since childhood most likely is that she was Vincent’s own spare for the watchdog duty until he married and had heirs of his own.
Cue the discourse to Lizzie as well when she wanted to give up on fencing, with the example of her dead mother in mind cementing Frances’ conviction that being as strong as possible was one of the keys to surviving as a Phantomhive (and when you see Tanaka living this old as a close associate to the P family, there again I doubt Frances is wrong).
Random but I totally have mixed feelings about this panel because
on the one hand it means that Frances totally chose who she was going to marry which is 100% like her
(not that I think that Vincent ever wished/was able to force his sister to do anything she didn’t want)
but on the other hand, I just don’t get it because I’m not sure there was a way for her to marry and stay into the P family in the first place?
I mean…
If Claudia became the Watchdog it might have been because there was no man related to the P family left to take on the title + Ann aside, it seems even Ciel only has Frances’ family left, so… how was she even supposed to remain in the family?
As I said random, but it just is funny in its own way. xD
Not the main reason, but still why I think Frances, like Tanaka, totally caught on Ciel’s “lie” about which twin came back 4 years ago.
Now whether Tanaka told her or she noticed on her own (since even Lizzie started to have her doubts after the Campania arc), I don’t know. xD
Hello Anon. 🙂 Soooo, to address your different remarks:
Sacrifice vs Accident
To quote you, “it’s an accidental summoning any way you look at it” in my opinion as well!
@cielsama14 explained it well enough as well here, so all I’m going to say is that our!Ciel definitely is the one who turned his back on God and called for Seb, which is why his brother’s soul was used to pay for Seb’s summoning. However, considering that he said…
I can’t call that a sacrifice, seeing as it’s not something he did consciously or willingly.
After reading the chapter, I also don’t think Seb lied, because he definitely heard our!Ciel calling and the fare for crossing was paid, so his interpretation that it was a sacrifice, especially considering the settings he found our!Ciel in, makes sense (even if we readers know that it’s not exactly what happened).
However, manipulation from Seb’s part is also rather obvious where I’m concerned, because he definitely decided to show up for a reason…
And his way to try and play it chill isn’t exactly fooling anyone…
…since our!Ciel didn’t really have any other option besides making that contract to survive the cult.
So in the end, it’s as William said…
About Frances
Frankly, whether she knew or not about which twin our!Ciel was, I don’t think it really matters nor that it will trigger such a huge reaction out of her in case she didn’t anyway. x) Besides, sorry but she clearly wasn’t wrong in ch132, I mean…
she never said that our!Ciel wasn’t clever enough for the job, more like he was too physically weak and we’ve had enough occasions to see for ourselves that, without Seb, Ciel would have indeed died many times in the past.
I mean, no worries, I can understand wanting Seb to mess with her a little, since she’s always keeping such a perfect composure, but I actually enjoy the fact that she, as well as Nina and UT, can give a demon cold sweat even though they’ll never be as strong as him. Besides…
this is Frances “tricked” by Seb in ch14, so I think she’s more level-headed than maybe you give her credit for (not that I can blame you for that, seeing how Yana uses her for comic relief most of the time xD).
…will probably always have to do with if/when she feels powerless about helping her family and maybe only our!Ciel (and not Seb) will ever have an influence on her in that aspect.
We have time before anything like that happens though, haha, so as always feel free to disagree. 🙂
Thanks for passing by Anon! I do agree that the Seb/Ciel dynamic is very interesting especially, since the more we advance, the more I see hints that they might end up clashing at some point, and that even though UT is counting on Seb to protect Ciel for now indeed. :))
Hi Anon! I hope you don’t mind but I already explained before, so I’ll give you links. :3
Basically, I think Vincent staring in this scene…
was either because of what our!Ciel said or what real!Ciel said, because in both cases, it gave hints about the twins being different (which is normal, just to precise): real!Ciel appears rather selfish in his argument (”we want them to work hard for us”) where our!Ciel is more selfless (”granting everyone’s wishes”), which kinda are opposite stances for the same idea.
If Vincent was particularly thinking about what our!Ciel was saying though, then yes, I do think that it was possibly for the same reason as UT saying that our!Ciel is different from his ancestors when he noticed that our!Ciel saved Harcourt’s life and not just his own in ch84:
I guess Vincent could have been thinking intently about what both his sons were saying too. 🙂 So this makes 3 possibilities overall for why this panel might be significant, haha.
I hope it helps (in the end I ended up explaining again anyway lmao)! Have a nice weekend, Anon!
I’m crying, how did they even know the baby would be a girl? There was no ultrasound or anything invented yet to know a baby’s gender before it was born! xDD
EDIT: no, they’re not talking about Sam’s granddaughter giving birth, since it says “he’d like you to name her, Earl”.
Hi Anon! Ah actually, to be fair it’s not something he did because he wanted to…
…but because it’s a tradition he owed to his tenants. Besides, even if the party turned out to be different in a good way, I’m not sure he enjoyed it a lot considering he was worried about Lizzie:
That being said, ch120 aside…
I agree that his words of ch132 were meant to insist that, even in present time, he’s more selfless than most characters or readers give him credit for. Something that UT even commented on during the Weston arc:
…as he was saving Harcourt from the bizarre dolls without any second thought.
And I, too, wish someone would hug him right now, but Lizzie is currently not present and busy with her own predicament, Soma is in shock and Sieglinde doesn’t have this type of proximity with him… Soon though. Soon I’m sure someone will comfort him. :3
Awww Anon, thank you so much! ❤
As I said I really don’t mind writing them to be this long and rereading them from time to time
(since a lot of things in Kuro are linked), but to be honest I always question if they really make sense, since I’m often considering many different versions of the same theory in order to make it work with canon elements with already have.
Anyway, not to ramble, thank you very much for reading and for such nice words! 😀
Please have a very enjoyable weekend Anon-chan, wishing you the best! ^3^
Hello Anon! Well, considering Frances’ discussion with Vincent…
…it seems indeed that it’s best if there is a spare to the Watchdog’s heir, just in case something happens.
I wouldn’t say that it’s impossible for Frances to have been Vincent’s spare back during their childhood however, even as a woman, because…
Claudia being the Watchdog probably was a special case
in the first place, as there might have been no man to take on the title, which is why Victoria probably allowed her to take it on instead, as we debated here:
“if there were no surviving legitimate male relatives, the title would become extinct… Unless someone got a parliamentary and royal warrant to pass it on to the daughter.“
Following this logic, if Victoria had given the agreement to Claudia for the Watchdog’s duty, it doesn’t seem illogical to think that Frances was her mother’s second heir, the spare in case something happened to Vincent, the rightful heir. That’s even why she’s probably as strong as she is…
because she was trained to take on the Watchdog duty too, just in case.
Crack theory time (that I share with @aroturier): if our!Ciel hadn’t come back 4 years ago, we were wondering if the Queen wouldn’t have passed the Watchdog duty
on
to Frances (aka to the Midford family).
I hope it answers your question, have a nice day Anon!
Honestly people bitching over Chapter 132’s panel where Lizzy got up and rushed over to see if real!Ciel was alright is RIDICULOUS. She’s what, 8 or 9 years old and she just wants to see if her cousin/fiancé is okay after being knocked down by THE Frances Midford (c’mon, a blow like that has GOT to hurt) and suddenly everyone thinks care and consideration are the two greatest sins a person could have. Oh god forbid Lizzy make sure her cousin isn’t injured after he got knocked on his ass and looked like he was gonna pass out after Frances gave him a verbal slap down. (And please bear in mind: RC wasn’t a little shit at this age yet so we are allowed to feel sympathy for this future basket-case.)
But this ONE scene has suddenly got people claiming our!Ciel was abused, mistreated, and tormented by his family and relatives?? Like BRUH—you are extrapolating nonexistent and implausible data which 1) you should NEVER do in statistics or in life and 2) it makes you look like a biased, headstrong fanatic who is determined to smear the Phantomhive/Midford families. Just because Vincent commented that his second son was sickly does NOT mean he didn’t love OC. Just because Frances pointed out OC had a weak constitution does NOT mean she didn’t love her nephew. And Lizzy rushing to make sure RC was alright does NOT mean she didn’t care for OC.
For the last flipping time—OC WAS LOVED. His parents were ready to cancel their boat trip because OC got a fever, remember? Does that sound like an abusive household where child services was desperately needed? NO. And did everyone just happen to forget what Lizzy was doing BEFORE RC was knocked flat on his ass? She was asking OC about his cold and wanting to know if he felt better. Lizzy is a considerate, cheerful, CARING girl by nature so OF COURSE she would want to make sure BOTH her cousins are happy, safe, and healthy.
And (I really must reiterate this again), the twins (plus Lizzy) were only 8 or 9 years old. I don’t think children that age are capable of declaring their undying, complex love and devotion for a person who they’ve basically grown up with and seen mainly as their cousin. To all the readers who believe that Lizzy “chose” RC over OC in this scene…Lizzy hasn’t even hit puberty yet, there is NO WAY she understands the nuances and intricacies of romantic love quite yet. She’s a fucking CHILD. In this scene, it was NOT Lizzy openly deciding to abuse and neglect OC, it was, quite simply, a little girl wanting to make sure her cousin wasn’t hurt after getting humiliated by Frances Midford née Phantomhive.
So please, I IMPLORE YOU, to please settle down and remember: this is a little girl who hasn’t even hit a double digit age number yet and all she’s doing is checking to make sure her cousin is okay.
Side note: please, please, please remember that this was the Victorian era. Children were given a greater degree of independence and expected to conduct themselves with all the maturity their station required of them. Because RC and OC were the sons of an earl, nephews to a marquess, and, on top of all this, members of the Phantomhive family, they were expected to behave with a certain amount of self-awareness. They weren’t going to be coddled forever and adults probably spoke to them like they would converse with other adults—which meant they didn’t hold back the truth (i.e. Diedrich’s comment towards OC that had half the fandom up in arms). Thus, with regard to differences in era and social class, we, as readers, must actively remind ourselves not to judge these characters based on our 21st century values.
Do some of these actions look outdated, patriarchal, and outright infuriating? Yes, they do—but the conditions of adolescence ran in accordance to the average lifespan of the Victorian era. A lifespan considerably shorter than our own. People graduated from universities at the age of 18, had children before they were 20, and probably died their mid to late 50s. Children were expected to grow up, learn fast, and uphold the honor and privilege of the family name. Just because OC isn’t coddled every other page doesn’t mean he was a neglected child whose boyhood was filled with emotional melancholy—it represents two key things:
1) That OC’s parents loved him and took the advice of doctors into account: no extraneous physical exercise for fear of triggering his asthma—hence why OC was kept indoors so often. Vincent and Rachel wanted OC to live. Would it really have been better for them to indulge OC’s whims, let him run around with his brother, and then have him suffer an asthma attack and die? I should think not.
2) They tried their hardest to include OC in whatever activities they did. Vincent took BOTH RC and OC with him to inspect the Phantomhive domain. RC explicitly told OC that he liked spending time with him. Lizzy was concerned over OC’s physical health and made sure to ask if he had recovered from his previous illness.
midnight-in-town 