Oh fuck it makes a lot more sense now, why Akira shielding Takizawa had such an impact on him, and why Takizawa was so frenzied with fighting Amon.
He was already doubting that no one cared about him anymore and his guilt was multiplied tenfold by the fact he could tell Houji let him win… Houji letting him kill him said, “I can’t let that you go even after trying to prove yourself to me became you’re a monster but I care about you too much to kill you so you’ll have to kill me.” That was a great sacrifice… but. Takizawa being forced to kill someone that loved him kinda reiterated his fear that he was a monster by forcing him to kill a loved one an act that is in itself monsterous and escalated his self-hate by about a thousand.
So when someone literally set aside not just their possible life but also their honor and actually said what they felt that second time it completely shattered the shaky idea he had that his existence was worthless.
It might also explain the fact of why he couldn’t immediately accept Amon’s offer at redemption, for one thing, he didn’t feel worthy of it, for another Amon was a little like Houji in that… he still wasn’t really accepting what Takizawa had become even when he was wanting to save him… (He could only see that as a reason to live later and it’s still unclear if he’s really accepted it.)
It took the dose of unconditional, “I’m really angry with you to the point I told you to die because I hate feeling what I do and I have unsorted issues with ghouls atm but ultimately I don’t care what you’ve become I’d still give up my honor and my life to save you without an expecation of recipication because I care about you.” that really got through to him… Even if part of it was guilt for not being able to save him before… Maybe even because it acknowledged part of what happened wasn’t his fault…
Hi Anon! Oh, I’ve seen a debate on that actually between @echo-from-the-void and @eto-when-and-where [x] and I meant to try and help, but I was so very busy last week that I thought I would leave the matter alone until I had enough time to try and solve whether this is a little plot hole or not. ;_;
Anyway, I gave it some thinking after receiving your ask, so here’s the thing: I don’t think there is any plot hole, it’s just that we all made the mistake to assume that…
…Roma was approximately 51 years at the time of ch135. So actually, I think the omake you’re talking about
is a hint to the very complicated timeline about the remaining Clowns that we still know almost nothing about.
Basically, I think Roma was 51 years old at the time she was thrown into Cochlea (that panel of ch135 indeed), but what’s left is for us to determine when exactly that was and that’s when it gets tricky, since we’re currently in 2015-2017.
(crack theory under read more)
Considering the omake with Tsuneyoshi though, my theory is as follows:
Roma lost to Tsuneyoshi just before 1945 and was thrown into Cochlea back then, which would explain why…
…there are several hints that apparently a long time passed between the moment she was locked up and then freed by Aogiri.
Besides that, there are other little hints that make me think that Roma was locked up a (very?) long time ago actually:
Because “Gypsy” being a name from an old past would explain why we never heard about her special reputation before: ghouls in their 20s/30s probably don’t know about her, because Roma was locked up so long ago in Cochlea.
Also…
Roma herself told us that she knew about when “the King of the Underground” was rampaging around, which is to say she knew or met…
…”the Nagaraj” that led to the creation of the predecessor organization to the CCG in 1890 (more details for the general timeline here).
So, assuming that Tsuneyoshi is the one who threw her in jail when she was 51: 1944(~) – 51 => if Roma was born around 1890…
…it would fit with the timeline and her being around when the Washuus were trying to deal with the Nagaraj.
TL;DR At the age of 51, Roma was thrown in Cochlea by Tsuneyoshi who defeated her apparently around 1945, which means that…
the “Clowns’ annihilation” that the CCG led only 10+ years ago had no direct link to Roma who was already in jail. In fact, Roma apparently was the founder of a gang that lasted several decades, which is why “even the Clowns [who were defeated by the CCG 10 years ago] didn’t know who their leader was”.
Sorry for all the pictures, it’s supposed to be helpful. xD
That’s my take on it but I’m still waiting for more hints about the Clowns’ gang and the part of the timeline that’s dedicated to them, since the more the story goes, the more hints we get that they are definitely older than they look (and thus they make everything more complicated). :3
Take with a big grain of salt though! And have a nice day. :))
It’s frustrating, really! I understand you and I also feel the same because Takizawa is a character I’ve loved ever since he appeared in TG. I don’t want him to die! :’’’’(
But let’s look from Akira and Houji’s point of view: both of them also love Takizawa and both of them want to save him but that doesn’t change the fact that he’s killed a lot of investigators and did many things against the CCG.
It’s a very complicated situation because for them it’s basically: their job as investigators (exterminating ghouls that are a threat for the lives of humans) VS. their personal feelings for Takizawa (Akira considers him a dear friend and was devastated when she thought he died while, on the other hand, Houji admires him as his student).
I just read the chapter and to be honest, I still don’t know what to think either. But it’s hard
‒
or pretty much impossible
‒
to determine who’s wrong and who’s right here. Akira and Houji are doing this because of their responsibilities as investigators but I’m sure in their hearts, they don’t really want to do it because they do care about Seidou. And poor Seidou… he doesn’t realize this and thinks they really do hate him.
I don’t know, anon, I don’t know. All I can say is that the whole situation is very sad because Akira and Houji chose to do something they don’t want to and the decision probably hurt them a lot; and Seidou feels like he’s been betrayed by the people he wanted to protect. It’s sad, so sad. *cries forever*
I’ve said it before, but I think another factor is in what Akira said to him.
They didn’t want him to be culled.
Houji and Akira know what the CCG does to ghouls. They know ghouls in Cochlea are tortured, experimented on, and used for Quinque materials. They know there’s already a planned Purge, as Aogiri-associated ghouls are no longer useful.
Takizawa’s only value to the organization, because of his power and past killings, is as a test subject. Something to chop up, and study, and use for Quinques.
The CCG has ordered Owl terminated. There is no happy “Haise” option for him, because the Washuus will not permit it. Akira and Houji know Takizawa isn’t going to be given a chance. So now their choices are try to put him down as quickly and painlessly as possible……or leave him to potentionally be hurt and violated even more.
It will hopefully make Akira think twice, realizing the horrors the CCG commits now that it’s aimed at people she loves.
If anyone doesn’t know the backround of what exactly the purpose of the Takizawa, Tatara, Houji Shenanigians was pre-chapter 89, or what I think the sad nature of how their fight turned out to be means, and how terribly sad I feel about Seidou and any positive outcome for it here I go…
Tatara’s Retribution Through Seidou
To make a long story short Takizawa’s old boss Houji was at one point transfered to China to help take care of a ghoul group called “Chi She Lian”. This group was headed by Tatara’s older brother Yan, and also contained Tatara and friend Fei. Houji’s group defeated Chi She Lian and having killed Yan and Fei Houji became the owner of quinques made from both of them.
These where the Quinque Houji gave Takizawa “Douhi” (Fei) and Houji’s dual quinque “Iltsu” (Yan). (I’m probably forgeting another but whatever).
So, Originally Tatara was seemingly supposed to catch Amon during the Anteiku raid due to Eto’s interest in him as a test subject, But Tatara seemed to see an opportunity in rounding up CCG investigators for Eto’s project, and made sure to capture Houji’s underling.
The revenge message was simple, “You steal my loved ones and comrades and use them against me? (Fei and Yan), I’ll take a person you care about and use them as a weapon against your kind” (Takizawa Houji’s underling). This act of revenge turned out we know now to be his undoing. The revenge for what the CCG has been doing for decades quinques.
The Worthless Fight
The fight between Houji and Tatara was short and accomplished nothing. Tatara grandstanded copying his brother kakuja and Houji waxing poetic about fire and hatred. It barely went anywhere and accomplished nothing, all do to one unforeseen person of collateral damage, and I think that was the point.
I think that’s the point. In the world of Tokyo Ghoul revenge has no purpose. Houji and Tatara represent one piece of the cycle of Ghoul/Human hatred. You stab me I stab you. The cycle continues. Having the revenge play out either way would not have any necessary forward movement to this story’s plot that haven’t happened in other arcs (such as the Mado/Every ghoul plot in TG whether Hinami want it or not their action led to the vengeance to continue to Akira). However because it failed on both side it illustrates another point.
1. The Cycle goes nowhere and only destroys people in it those around it. Takizawa originally had nothing to do with the fight between Tatara and Houji. He was just some kid who went into the CCG because his mother was afraid of ghouls and society gave him the idea he could help others and become a hero by doing so. He originally had next to nothing even to do with the people directly in the cycle of revenge, his downfall was literally only being the underling of the wrong person, and doing the right thing by listening to Akira when she rightfully thought Amon was in danger.
2. The Tatara/Houji Revenge shows the nature of what can go wrong with revenge. Tatara was blinded to everything but his revenge and probably didn’t even think about Takizawa as a person let alone how Takizawa’s feelings and emotions could effect everything and it destroyed him. Not to sound like Houji but the revenge spread like an Arsonist’s fire spreading and bringing the building down on everyone involved.
Everyone involved in the revenge plot was left in pain or dead and completely unsatisfied, illustrating how the revenge cycle accomplishes nothing but but spreading pain. The Point of the fight and Tatara and Houji’s deaths being pointless is that the revenge is pointless! All Houji’s men but Akira died, Takizawa’s madness made him act out a perversion of his original goal.
Tatara’s Flashback is also important because it make reference to the only solution to to the cycle of Ghoul/Human revenge. Did Arima find what he was looking for? Will the cycle ever be broken by the new OEK? Because that will be the only way people like Tatara will ever find peace.
What good could come out of this?
I can only think of one thing, Akira.
Recently Ishida released a posted a drawing of Akira releasing a handful of clover on his Twitter feed. Clover has always been a reference to Hinami. Hinami and Akira both hold places opposite one another in the cycle of revenge.
Perhaps Akira seeing how much revenge can, and learning the possible humanity of ghouls through Sasaki will let go of a need to avenge her father, perhaps through still caring about Takizawa to some extent, she’ll accept that her father’s evil deeds as such despite her love for him.
I’m not gonna lie was hoping Ishida would have done more with Tatara and Houji’s characters with all the mystery surrounding them, (maybe we will learn more?) But I also like what Ishida did, he made the revenge feel as empty and needlessly destructive for the reader as it was for those involved… That was meant as a compliment
So once again, we see someone’s ambitions cut short. Tatara spent his life consumed with hatred, wanting revenge against Houji……and that very desire for revenge ended up destroying him without getting what he wanted.
He maimed Takizawa and gave him over to Kanou as revenge against Houji. And after years within Aogiri, gaining power and becoming stronger, and seemingly making himself important to the higher ups……Takizawa turns on him and takes his own revenge.
But in a way, Tatara did still end up getting revenge through his proxy. Takizawa’s twisted fantasy of becoming a hero was harshly ended by reality, and he lashed out when rejected. It seems he’s killed Houji in his rage, ending both sides of that rivalry with no one getting what they had hoped for. And isn’t that a crueler fate in the end, that Houji dies at the hands of his former subordinate? D:
And it really goes to show just how broken Takizawa is, mentally. That he seemed to honestly believe all he had to do was eventually turn on Tatara, and he would get a hero’s welcome back into the CCG. As though killing and eating comrades would just be forgotten or forgiven, and they would embrace him without hesitation. It’s pretty clear that no one else mattered to him, and he really just wanted to impress the two important people in his life. He wanted Houji to praise him, and Akira to see him as someone strong. Perhaps clinging to that thought kept him going, through everything that he endured in being shaped into Owl.
Instead, he got the harsh reality that his actions had consequences. That because of what he is and what he’s done, the people he cared about no longer see him as anything but a mad dog to be mercy killed. So he does the only thing he’s capable of doing at this point, which is lashing out and using his strength to hurt others. In spite of all his power, he’s still that insecure boy that desperately wants to be praised and cannot handle rejection or disappointment.
Seidou is really crushing my heart in this chapter…
He went against the organization that gave him power
He killed the only person who treated him like a valuable and strong associate
He did it because he thought that this way he could finally be seen as a hero by the people he thought he had forgotten because ‘ghouls can’t care about people’
He did it because he wanted for Houji to admire him, to look at him with pride
He did it because he wanted for Akira to be on his side, he who’s always denied any attachment and any romantic feelings for her, wanted her recognition.
He did it because he wanted to prove himself he was worth that praise
Gosh, I am crying too, my son
Why can’t you just love yourself
(I’m dead inside too)
This post is completely on point and to make things even harder for my feels I can’t help but wonder if Seidou started to realize that he wanted Akira to be on his side and for her to “see him being heroic” after the auction arc, when he felt ashamed at the thought that she saw her as a OEG covered in blood.
At least no one can doubt that he planned ahead and waited for a good opportunity to kill Tatara, it was definitely premeditated.
But you know the worst gotta be this…
because if he believes he only ever saw her face from the side, that probably means he thinks she never really looked at him [x], so after she saw him as a terrifying OEG during the auction arc Seidou wanted to really show Akira that he could be a hero in her eyes…
Seidou: I really came to save you all… And yet… Seidou: I was his subordinate… And him trying to kill me… Unforgivable. Seidou: If Houji-san was there on that day, this probably would’ve never happened. Seidou: I… I also wanted you to see it.
And… *sobs* the conclusion to all this is just so very very sad (and Amon’s arrival is just plain painful as well, considering he and Seidou are probably enemies now ;_;)
It’s true a lot of people keep on mentioning how Seidou jumping the way he did in the last chapter saved Houji from Tatara’s flames (that and the high possibility for betrayal thanks to the calendar, as explained in this great post) and they’re right, it could definitely be seen that way…
But I just think, like you apparently, that it’s not the only possibility because of Seidou strangling Akira a little after (since ch87 happens in the timeline after ch88).
I mean, if you look at Seidou when he strangles her…
You can see him crying and with blood on his face, so it’s obvious more happened between the moment he jumped on Tatara’s head and the moment he has Akira’s neck in hands.
From the way I see things, maybe Seidou joined the fight and told Tatara that he wanted to also kill his share of CCG investigators (they’re food to him after all) and in his initial plans that included Houji and Akira too until everything took a turn towards the worst. Of course I remember that card Ishida published on his birthday last year…
But do you really see Seidou admitting (both to himself and to others) that there are people of his past life he can’t eradicate? That’s definitely not how he sees himself right now, not as the powerful OEG he is. So we readers know there is a possibility that he might betray Aogiri for Akira and Houji but seeing the last two chapters, this has not happened yet in my opinion, otherwise he wouldn’t be strangling Akira and crying at the same time.
Let’s not forget that Eto and Tatara made Seidou the OEG he is, probably by torturing him a lot (remember, Tatara hates Houji so he might have been really harsh on Seidou because he knew he was Houji’s subordinate), so it’s not like it’s easy to stop obeying Tatara all of the sudden, not after 3-4 years.
The page he’s strangling Akira is probably the start of his dilemma (that would be why he’s crying), so fas I see it, him jumping on Tatara’s head has not yet to do with betrayal, but rather with him joining the “fun”.
We’ll see next week anyway, even if I can’t wait. ^^
I hope it answers your question Anon! Have a nice day 🙂
midnight-in-town 