we’ve watched Our!Ciel go through so many emotional breakdowns before in the manga but for some reason this one is way worse because he can’t even speak, he’s just standing there watching everyone slowly turn against him and regressing back to the shy, scared little kid he was when his brother was still alive
Hello Anon! Well, the last time we truly saw Lizzie was in ch116/117 and…
…She seemed more worried about stopping Seb from going to the labs rather than fighting against a real demon, so no, I don’t think that she knew at the time.
Of course, there is still a possibility that ever since ch117 Bravat or real!Ciel told her about Seb’s true nature (since Bravat definitely knows and real!Ciel seems to know as well that Seb is the demon who ate his soul 4 years ago), however, assuming that Lizzie is most likely seen as a pawn to hurt our!Ciel [x]…
…it would be wiser of Bravat and co not to tell her, in my opinion.
Lizzie is currently conflicted about making the right choice between her duty (real!Ciel) and her feelings (our!Ciel) [x][x] so, should Bravat tell her that our!Ciel sold his soul to a demon, she would probably be sadder at the idea of losing him and it could push her to disregard her duty in favor of her feelings.
It might not appear blatant, but I’m guessing that arguing that real!Ciel was in poor “health” is probably the argument that won Lizzie over when it comes to her running away from home:
She decided that she would be here for him, because he was in dire straits, and then she stayed because he is her rightful fiancé.
Lizzie is most likely the ace of Bravat’s side, because she definitely is the person our!Ciel cares the most about (it’s even how Bravat referred to her), which means that they can’t afford to have her changing sides. So, not telling Lizzie about Seb to keep her thinking that real!Ciel needs her the most (on top of her doing her duty) is the most logical.
Maybe she’ll know before the end of the arc though if, for instance, she changes sides and a very angry real!Ciel drops another bomb on her: the boy she loves not only lied about his identity but he also sold his soul to a demon and won’t live old.
TL;DR no, I don’t think she knows for now. 🙂
I hope it helps, have a nice weekend Anon!
Hello! It’s a very good and possible idea, though ch117 gave no hint of Elizabeth feeling particularly angry at Sebastian in my opinion, except maybe for…
this scene.
You can hardly even say that she meant to kill him though: she knew he was strong so she attacked him because he was trespassing and her only reason for doing so was because she was being Gandalf 2.0 “I shall not let you pass”.
In my opinion, all she wanted was to protect the lab, most likely because she was told that it was very important to real!Ciel’s survival (since it has all the blood and all), but maybe you’re right and the “you dare ask why” part is supposed to hint that real!Ciel/Bravat told her that Seb “did something to real!Ciel, 4 years ago”.
It’s possible, thanks for sharing your thoughts Anon! 🙂 Have a nice day.
Hey Anon, as I was saying just above, frankly I’m not sure about “killing intents”. First of all, she was obviously very confused, but for me the reason she attacked Seb was
because she was aware of how strong he was
and she did it to protect the labs, for real!Ciel’s sake.
It doesn’t mean that she doesn’t care about our!Ciel anymore, it just means that at the time she thought she had no choice when she took the decision to be by real!Ciel’s side (even if we know that it makes her unhappy). Without attacking Sebastian in order to stop him, he surely would have wasted no time discarding her to the side to go to the labs. And again I just don’t think she knew he was a demon in ch117 because she didn’t show fear for her sake, which she should have if she had known he was a demon.
Anyway, Anon, Lizzie is bound not to be friendly with Sebastian until the end of the manga. She might not know about his nature or the contract with our!Ciel right now but, narratively speaking, she’s bound to know at some point and, when she finds out, she won’t trust or like Sebastian anymore.
TL;DR I think she attacked Seb in ch117 because her goal at the time was “protecting the labs” (and thus helping real!Ciel by doing so). She might have been told that Seb did something to real!Ciel 4 years ago, but I don’t think she was in to kill him, that she knows he’s a demon or about the contract.
Also Lizzie definitely still cares about our!Ciel. 😉
I hope it helps, have a nice day!
It’s okay Anon 🙂 I see which scene you’re talking about:
How about what the second Anon said above as an explanation then? Lizzie doesn’t know that Seb is a demon or about the contract but Real!Ciel told her…
…that Seb did something to him 4 years ago, without telling her the entire truth.
Telling Lizzie that Seb is a demon or that our!Ciel sold his soul to him wouldn’t be the wisest move to make
(in my opinion)
for reasons I explained in the first post. However, if Lizzie is really a pawn to use against our!Ciel, then she’s definitely emotionally manipulated as well.
So, real!Ciel (or Bravat) could have said that Seb did something to him, or even worse, that our!Ciel allied with Seb in order to get rid of him (which is a hugely distorted version of the truth), which would explain why Lizzie is so heartbroken and depressed.
Think about it, it might not be just the fact that our!Ciel lied that’s making Lizzie so sad: I wouldn’t be surprised if real!Ciel had distorted the truth to make her choose his side, since she’s the best person to hurt our!Ciel (here’s a friendly reminder that the twin is a villain by the way [x]).
Back to your question, with this theory and her being confused and emotionally exhausted in mind, maybe she almost went for a kill then. It’s definitely possible, all I’m saying is that I doubt her heart was 100% into it, due to her being completely lost as to what to do and feel for a long time.
Overall, the interpretation of ch117 depends on what exactly Bravat/Real!Ciel told Lizzie about our!Ciel and Seb. Nonetheless, I hope this explanation works a little better for you?
Have a nice day Anon. 🙂
Post from last year but reblogging because on point with the latest chapter.
I said this before but I still think that R!Ciel is out to isolate O!Ciel in order to make himself look as O!Ciel’s only ally and make O!Ciel dependent on him. What I can’t put my finger on just yet, is if he’s doing it because of his yandere tendencies and thus out of genuine if twisted love for O!Ciel… or because he actually is bitter about what happened and wants to have revenge on him. So far, it looks as if it were the former but it’d be interested if it were the latter (I love angst).
I normally don’t theorize if it’s not directly related to Lizzy/Cielizzy, but my money (like a lot of people’s) is on R!Ciel and Undertaker being behind the anonymous call. Whether it was them themselves or they asked someone else to do it, I have no clue. But the culprit would still be them either way.
There is the fact that they’re the only ones to not look surprised when everyone barges in. But aside that, what better way to make his grand return than when his little brother is mind broken, and by solving a crime that R!Ciel/Undertaker themselves started?
Seriously, it’s brilliant.
They already got what they needed from Bravat, and they better than anyone know how he works – since they are the ones who set all this up. So by helping solve their own crime – technically committed by someone else – R!Ciel wouldn’t only been retaking his place as Earl Phantomhive, but also showing he’s competent to be the Queen’s Watchdog.
I knew Lizzy was in the manor all along and that she’d be saved for last!! I wonder how much she heard? And how much of R!Ciel/O!Ciel’s story was even said aloud, anyway? The flashback went on for so long that now everything is blurry for me lol
In either case, now is when things will get truly
interesting because ohhh boy can I see R!Ciel using Lizzy in all the ways he sees fit to further break and isolate O!Ciel.
I’m eager to see R!Ciel and Lizzy interact because I wonder if he’s going to bother to put of the façade of a loving fiancee, or if he’s not even going to bother to hide his manipulations from her. I’m also wondering if he still harbors any sort of affection for her, or if his status as a bizarre doll prevents it and now all his feelings are reserved towards his little brother.
My girl is finally in the same room as the two of them. I’m so excited I can barely wait for next month.
Her face though.
Oh God. Her face. Lizzy is so damn hurt. She’s spent the entire arc alone and miserable and who knows all the stuff R!Ciel and the others fed her.
But it’s extremely telling that despite all that, despite what she knows and doesn’t know – Lizzy still looks heartbroken to not be on O!Ciel’s side.
I’m starting to think her absence is not an accident…
Same and, I hope you don’t mind @the–dark–crow–smiles, but I’ve been thinking and right now I see a few reasons why Sensei might leave her out on purpose:
she already knew about our!Ciel’s lie so there is no need for her to be here:
Discussed previously here [x][x][x] and especially possible in case the recent chapters are A Gathering of Characters Who Had to Find Out about the 2ct.
It’s confirmed Tanaka knew (even if we don’t know what gave our!Ciel away, either the Funtom corporation or a consequence of the RCMT?) but who says he was the only one? And he could have simply told her since they are really close and she’s Ciel’s aunt, in case she initially didn’t figure it out on her own.
she can’t be here, because her presence would solve a part of the arc too easily:
Includes the first idea. Specifically I’m referring to Lizzie being obviously hurt about our!Ciel’s lie in the cliffhanger of the newest chapter.
It’s kinda similar to why the Midford parents were not getting involved when Ciel was trying to understand why Lizzie had run away and how to get her back.
For some parts of the narrative the characters have to manage by themselves in order to reach more developments: so just like Ciel had to try and bring Lizzie back by himself to end up where we are currently, she has to try and reach out to him by herself to find out why he lied in the first place.
And the thing is, Sensei confirmed that Frances was Lizzie’s role model, so if Frances knew about our!Ciel’s lie, were to show up and say “I knew but didn’t say anything because I thought he must have had his own valid reasons” (just like Tanaka), it may influence Lizzie into giving our!Ciel a chance more easily than the way it is going now, with the sect obviously having an influence on her way of thinking.
We know Sensei likes to expand on drama: having Frances possibly knowing about our!Ciel’s lie for a while would make Lizzie consider why even her mother kept quiet on the subject and she might be more willing to listen to Ciel’s explanation as a result. So that could be why Frances can’t show up.
she can’t be here because she’s elsewhere doing something that will end up being plot relevant later?
I mean, unless the whole point of her not being here is because “it’s not proper of a noble lady to show up alongside Scotland Yard to your nephew’s house without sending a letter to forewarn him”, I’d say if she’s not there and didn’t know about our!Ciel’s lie, then it’s because she is busy elsewhere, relating to another part or a future arc or something similar.
she didn’t want to show up because she figured out/Tanaka told her (?) that UT was behind the current arc and she and UT don’t get along
This also ties to the UT = Cedric theory in my opinion, because with usual comic relief being always treated the same way, it isn’t that far-fetched to consider that Frances’ strong dislike of bangs and unsightly men might originally root from UT. So she might have something personal against him and wouldn’t want to meet him if that were the case.
However, nothing makes this theory more likely than its counterpart about UT not being Cedric and we’re far away from the truth on this part of the plot anyway, so this might be reaching a little too much right now.
(I’ll consider it more seriously in case we’re never given an explanation as to what Frances was up to)
she’ll show up later (along with other characters like Diedrich, Klaus, Pitt, etc)?
just a last idea in case all the others turn out to be wrong but I’d rather she doesn’t show up at this point: it’s way more interesting like that if that was really done on purpose. x)
Anyway, listen: actually, I don’t really care whether readers like Lizzie or not. 🙂
There is no character that everyone has to love and she’s no exception, so I’m not blaming anyone for not being her fan. What I can’t stand however is people criticizing her for something a male character wouldn’t or, more accurately, wasn’t criticized about, because that’s misogyny and honestly? As a girl myself, I’m allowed to think that it sucks.
As @hitsugikuro explained here, Soma thought our!Ciel was the reason Agni died and he even punched him before swearing revenge on him and like… where is the criticism then, especially when our!Ciel has nothing to do with it?
Whereas Lizzie gets called out for being hurt and confused, because he really lied and because she actually loves our!Ciel so damn much that the blue sect went as far as to use the truth against her in order to eventually hurt him:
So don’t get me wrong, I don’t wish for Soma to be attacked for what he did or said either, but it feels unfair for Lizzie to face this is at all, just because she’s considered to be an annoying little girl when she’s so much more than that.
So there is misogyny and then there are readers calling her out because they’re doubting that Lizzie will obviously side again with our!Ciel’s eventually. And that I can’t understand because, as I was trying to explain above, that’s just ignoring 27 volumes of Sensei’s writing and honestly? Well, that sucks too.
At this point people gotta realize that, if both Soma and Lizzie are hurt and confused about what’s going on, it’s all because Ciel needs to realize that unfortunately…
…as much as he may pretend to wish he were, he’s not alone in this and there are consequences to acknowledge regarding most of the decisions he took so far.
Again though, I’m definitely not hoping that a wave of criticism ever hits Ciel: the poor boy went through so much and has a lot to cope with, but this arc is about confrontation, so it’s time to get the skeletons out of the closet (literally, @ thanks UT).
Additionally about Lizzie, to get back on a few things you were saying (and because some readers seem to still misunderstand her character, which is for shame), her whole character revolving around her fiancé can indeed be seen as a flaw because it’s slightly extreme, but in that case again, context is needed:
Because training in order to be as strong as possible and survive as the Watchdog’s wife is literallyher whole life. So like it or dislike it, again I don’t mind either way, but that’s the whole 15 years of her life and so that can’t be ignored when it comes to how one reads her character.
BTW, for the few who may read this and misunderstand, blaming Frances for this won’t do either, because Frances just wants her daughter not to end like her own brother and mother and for that I believe she’s extremely commendable.
I don’t think that most readers realize how much Frances must have loved her brother’s family to accept that Lizzie would marry and become a Phantomhive, having already lived through her mother’s probable murder and still going with the engagement for our!Ciel’s sake even after Vincent, too, was murdered.
So I spoke of that many times before, it’s one reason I’m so damn fond of these characters and why I can’t stop rambling, but the Phantomhive family has special circumstances whether you like or not.
I’m not saying we’re not
supposed
to see character flaws or dysfunctioning dynamics where they exist, on the contrary, but they have their own standards and they would probably do things differently if they weren’t constantly targeted by the burden of the Watchdog duty.
I mean, why do you guys think that UT went bat shit crazy on the subject?
It’s no coincidence.
Final point but “Lizzie needing to please her fiancé” used to be a thing that Ciel managed to undo with the Campania arc in my opinion, because what he told her allowed her to realize that she could defintiely be her true self with the person she loved the most and he wouldn’t push her away.
And that’s a main point as to why she’s definitely going back to him without a doubt. :))
Sorry for rambling, I think you unknowingly addressed a subject I’m fond of. xD But yeah, context matters.
Our Ciel: Let’s assess… Government officials and many civilians are dead from illegal blood transfusions, Blavat is still at large, Violet is in the hospital, the rest of the Starlight Four are on the run, a butler is dead, Soma probably wants to kill me, I just had to relive the worst trauma of my life, my dead twin brother whose identify I stole has been brought back to life by a rogue reaper, 2 more reapers have shown up, Scotland Yard has shown up, the Midfords have shown up, Lizzie is against me, my brother is being super creepy, everyone and their dog is in my entrance hall, and my window is broken. What’s next? Undertaker’s going to tell me he’s my grandpa?
I want to make another point, despite that a lot was said on the subject already: you should never ever forget about context whenever new content is released, which is what a lot of Kuro readers seem to be doing about the cliffhanger with Lizzie.
…Though considering that a good part of these readers possibly already disliked Lizzie’s character before and are just using the cliffhanger as a pretext to have more discourse, this is probably a moo post but still, I’ll try.
Obviously it’s not the first time this has happened: to give another example, before we tackled this part in the recent flashback, a lot of readers used to be on our!Ciel’s back because they thought he had deliberately sacrificed his elder brother, in order to steal everything from him because he was jealous of his brother being the official heir.
We now know that this explanation couldn’t be the furthest away from the truth.
The same goes with Lizzie: as I already said yesterday, we don’t even know what she was told of the situation. Hell, for all we know, she could have been told that Sebastian is responsible for real!Ciel’s death and, since he’s always following our!Ciel’s orders, she could have reached a wrong conclusion. So Lizzie is in need of the truth, that much is clear.
And that’s why replacing in context always matters. Context relates to whether or not you honestly think that Lizzie will never get to hear or understand our!CIel’s side of the story. If you think she’ll stand by real!Ciel’s side and will despise our!Ciel forever for lying, then you’re not taking context into account and honestly that’s what’s bothering me besides the usual bullshit about her character, because context is 100% plot-related.
Context is what Sensei previously said and showed about Lizzie’s feelings for our!Ciel.
Context is the fact that Lizzie’s role model in life is her mother and, I might be wrong, but I believe there is a reason Frances apparently doesn’t show up in the current arc (I personally believe that like Tanaka she knew everything from the beginning
[x][x][x] but chose to keep quiet because she knew our!Ciel must have had his reasons for lying).
Context is Ciel and Lizzie needing character development and facing hardships in order to learn better and grow up even more.
Context is that Ciel’s lie led to a lot of people now misunderstanding (Lizzie, Soma too) and he has to acknowledge that there are always consequences to face about any decision he took (the same will probably happen later for the contract).
Context is any new development leading somewhere for both the plot and characters.
So you wanna shit on Lizzie? As regrettable and a sign of being narrow-minded as it is, being the main girl she has it tough and that can’t be helped.
¯_(ツ)_/¯
However, if you read Kuroshitsuji, that means you’re in it for the story too, so spouting bullshit about one cliffhanger when the series is 27+ volume long and this arc is not close to being over makes little sense.
That’s why, please do everyone who enjoys the series a favor and always try to make an educated criticism about Sensei’s writing.
I’d just like to point out that when we saw Soma jump to the wrong conclusion after Agni was murdered, there were very few people hating on him for it. Yet when Lizzy calls OCiel a liar for actually lying to her for three years, fans are out for her blood.
That’s disappointing.
I added it on other posts and I want to add it to yours too, if you don’t mind. :3 Not only do you make an absolutely valid point, but also… in my opinion we don’t know a single thing about Lizzie’s life for these past months.
Friendly reminder that Lizzie got “what’s supposed to be the truth” from real!Ciel, Bravat and UT and, not only did they kill people to get blood for some experiments, but one is dead and not reliable, another doesn’t even know our!Ciel and UT is totally lost in the idea that bringing back the dead should solve everyone’s problem including our!Ciel’s.
So who can vouch that Lizzie actually knows anything close to the truth about 4 years ago when our!Ciel is the only one who knows the truth and he certainly never mentioned anything?
Our!Ciel and Lizzie just need to honestly talk: she doesn’t side with either twin in full recognition as long as she doesn’t get to know what the real story is (and the real story is that Ciel suffered from survivor’s guilt and didn’t want to disappoint what was left of his family by being the one to come back)
And let me tell you, since Sensei already said that Lizzie was in love with our!Ciel, if anyone thinks that she’s actually going to side with the twin 5ever, you’re in for a plot twist. 😉
midnight-in-town 