I’m going to begin by quoting Dostoyevsky’s The Idiot: “Don’t let us forget that the causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them.”
Let’s also discuss the term “murderer” in the story. Every single character except Yoriko and Momochi Ikuma is a murderer. The point is not “Kaneki is worse!” but rather “Kaneki is no different.” When I say Kaneki is a murderer, it is not me condemning him, or saying that his actions are not understandable at times, or that I don’t relate to his struggles as the OEK, because I do understand where he’s coming from and I relate heavily to his struggles.
But yes, Kaneki is a murderer. So is everyone. And the reasons they are all murderers are immeasurably more complex than the simple fact that they took away a breathing, thinking, hoping person’s life. Those complex reasons are what give them hope for redemption.
Narratively, Kaneki has been a murderer since the Shironeki days, in which he expressly stated he was murdering and cannibalizing to gain strength. This happened after Yamori tortured him, which was not his fault. However, we are also shown two key facts: 1) Kaneki had violent tendencies repressed inside him all along, that he rightly chose not to act on earlier and as a privileged human did not need to, and 2) that Yamori, as a ghoul, was acting on his violent tendencies earlier, but became a sadistic torturer after his capture by Tokage. We are supposed to compare Kaneki and Yamori post-torture; they both crack knuckles, etc. I’m not saying Kaneki is as bad as Yamori because hell no, but what I am saying is that if we can’t excuse Yamori for become a sadistic evil man after torture, we also cannot excuse Kaneki for killing everyone at the ghoul restaurant for the purpose of strength.
I’ve also discussed the Mutsuki-post-Torso comparison ad nauseum, but suffice to say again, if we did not excuse Mutsuki, we cannot excuse Shironeki no matter how relatable he is, and he is.
As a CCG investigator, Haise won the Golden Osmanthus Medal, which is given for exterminating 100 ghouls a year. That being said, yes, he was brainwashed and amnesiac and that was taken advantage of–but then he stuck with the CCG as Reaperneki once he had his memories back: planning to help Hinami escape, but still killing in the meantime (Shiono, for example, was a human). If we are not supposed to excuse Arima for his murders of ghouls despite his longterm plan–and Arima did not excuse himself–we are not supposed to excuse Kaneki, either.
And the Oggai. I’ve discussed this ad nauseum too, but again: yes, Furuta, Kanou, and Kimi etc. were at fault primarily. Kaneki was manipulated. But. Furuta literally spent a chapter warning Kaneki:
We got Irimi warning Kaneki to not bear the burden alone:
We got Ayato warning him to commit:
And we got Kaneki himself thinking of some good ideas:
All of this is to say Ishida is clearly, clearly, clearly showing us Kaneki had a way out, a way to avoid Dragon. Furuta did not have to win. But he did.
I’m not sure how chapters 143-44 could make it any more obvious. Ishida is literally telling us blatantly that our choices lead us to what we become. Kaneki made his choices. That is why he faced what he did. Even once the ward was under attack he had ways to avoid this–bringing others back with him, etc.–but he didn’t.
I’m pretty sure Rize going to lay this out for him the next few chapters. The whole theme of TG is that there are not black and white lines, ghoul vs human, good and bad, monsters vs human. We can see ourselves in characters like Kaneki and Mutsuki, and the point isn’t supposed to be that we excuse them, but rather that we understand that they are not monsters but can do monstrous things, and guess what? Every single human being alive right now is capable of monstrous things too, but that does not make any of us monsters. Every character is capable of monstrous things, but they are not monsters. Kaneki is literally a monstrous form right now in Dragon, but we still relate to him, and that’s deliberate. It doesn’t make Dragon not narratively his fault or make him a bad condemnable person.
This leaf is exactly the reason people were certain that Kaneki would become the OEK long before it happened!
Have a nice day Anon!
Hello! And no I don’t recall having seen any symbolic explanation for why this leaf was chosen as crest and it’s not particularly a forte of mine, so I really don’t know, sorry.
The only thing I can think of is that, since the skeleton OEK was often used to represent “the One Eyed King leading Aogiri” (even if we now know that it might also represent the previous OEG, king of the 24th ward/”Nagaraj”) but in fact Aogiri’s leader was Eto “the One Eyed Owl”, maybe the “leaf” is the representation of an Owl’s paw?
As for Kaneki, maybe it is Ishida’s mistake? Or it’s supposed to mean that he’ll be different as a king compared to his predecessors?
Symbolism isn’t really my thing, sorry Anon. Have a nice day.
I’m still in the process of rereading TG but after the newest chapter I’m wondering if Eto really is the one who kept Noro “alive” all these years, as we all thought for a long time.
He was shown/said to eat a lot, always, and he’s from the 24th ward so many readers already suspected he could have a link to the previous OEG who took his kind underground + as a OEG himself it would make sense that he sheltered and protected Eto at her father’s demand.
Also, now that we know that eating/cannibalizing a lot helps ghouls with slowing down aging, at least when it comes to the physical appearance like Roma who’s 51 but looks like a teenager…
…maybe Noro used to eat a lot too because it was necessary to “keep young” and stay “alive” since as the previous OEG he would have been around 100 years old in the current timeline.
Him keeping a young appearance (at least) through eating a lot until he was killed could also explain why only a skull was left after his death.
TL;DR maybe Aogiri was the one who had the “underground king” with them, which makes sense, since they wanted to build a society for ghouls. Noro was the previous OEG/OEK, ruler of the 24th and the one that was referred to as the “Naagaraj” and, like Roma, he kept a young appearance for years despite being 100 years through eating/cannibalizing a lot, until he went all out against the Qs and only a skull was left as he died.
(Will edit if by rereading the series something is off with this theory. :))
NOTICE: This translation does not
base on original version of the novel (which is Japanese), but on the official
Mandarin/Traditional Chinese version. Some contents or meaning may be misinterpreted
due to multiple translations between different languages and my personal
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some grammar mistakes may be unavoidable. Please, do point out any parts you
find strange or mistaken.
DISCLAIMER: This translation is for the purpose of my personal language practicing
only. I do not own or originally created any contents in this novel. Tokyo Ghoul :re[quest] (東京喰種–トーキョーグール-:re[quest]) is written by Towada Shin (十和田シン), which based on Tokyo
Ghoul(東京喰種トーキョーグール) series, the creation of
Ishida Sui (石田スイ). Thus, all the rights of
this work reserved to Ishida Sui, Towada Shin and the publisher, Shueisha Inc. (株式会社集英社).
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-1-
Hiding under other people’s wings forever, then you’ll end up achieve
nothing, and lose everything
So she raised up her courage, stepped into the shade of the Tree where
could never be shined by sunlight, for she hoped she herself would have enough
strength to help others.
Hey Anon! Sorry, I got so many Anons and a possible identity war between two of them that I can’t say anymore which Anon you were… ;_;
Anyway, hm… Honestly, I do see a parallel between Amon and Suzuya, if just because they were indeed raised by two ghouls. As you said though, Donato and Big Madam didn’t raise them similarly, although neither are exemplary parental figures.
I mean, Big Madam used horrible abuse as a way to “tame” Juuzou into what she wanted him to be (a pet and a scrapper), but she was so violent and destructive that Juuzou turned out to be the kid we met in TG. He had the most amazing luck because Shinohara then took care of him and helped him become an astounding young man, but Juuzou’s trauma was initially due to physical abuse and torture, which triggered a severe mental dissociation (”Juuzou and Rei”) and occasional fits of his own peculiar violence.
As for Amon, Donato probably never beat him, but he forced Amon to become the son he saw in him by breaking Amon’s illusions about family but entertaining his own, which is why he made Amon be a part of his life, by having him help with food after the murders of these young boys.
There again, Amon was rescued by the CCG and his traumatic past with Donato ended up making him hateful towards ghouls, something that was entertained when he found his own mentor in Mado Kureo (since Mado hated ghouls as well for what happened to Kasuka).
In any case, Juuzou and Amon developed differently because their respective childhood were different and they grew up to be different men: Juuzou doesn’t hate ghouls but he’s Shinohara’s successor so it’s his job as an investigator to hunt ghouls.
Meanwhile Amon became a OEG and is angry at the world, but he still won’t fight “for the ghoul side”, because he still sees himself as an investigator and he still sees Mado Kureo as someone worthy of his respect, probably because he could never forgive Donato for his traumatic childhood.
As with everything, it’s all relative though, because in Juuzou’s case, Kaneki is an important friend and in Amon’s case, he still has to face Donato because the Anteiku raid arc showed that he still somehow counted as a father figure for Amon. Anyway, Juuzou and Amon both had their initial parental figures being a ghoul before human mentors took over in their development, but strangely enough, because of Donato’s methods and Big Madam’s being different, Amon and Juuzou grew up to be different men, both astounding in their own way.
As for Takizawa, well, I don’t think he’s similar to either Amon nor Juuzou, because his life is completely different. He had a normal childhood, being raised by a loving family. What lost Takizawa back when Aogiri experimented on him was that he gave up upon realizing that he wasn’t strong enough to even resist eating his own parents.
Then, because of a deeply-rooted inferiority complex, after the investigator in him “died in that prison” because he gave up, he focused on becoming stronger and more threatening because he was referred to as one of Kanou’s successes (a title that only Kaneki got besides him). Seeing Akira again in the Auction arc made him lose his certainty that this life was the best he could hope to live though, which is why he ended up fighting Tatara for the CCG’s sake. Aaand now that he’s on a redemption path, he yet took on a different path from Amon’s and Juuzou’s current respective paths.
So I wouldn’t say that his development really parallels Amon’s or Juuzou’s, whose respective backstories are definitely more similar because they were raised by two (albeit very different) ghouls before their respective human mentors took over.
Sorry for the ramble, but that’s my take on the subject, I hope it makes sense!
Hey Anon 🙂 Aww, I hope, no, I’m sure Hina will be okay as well :3 She already hugged Akira so it’s only a matter of time and of also maybe finding the strength to openly admit to others that she doesn’t have to always agree with everything that’s being done around her. And she has Ayato whom she can talk to in case she needs someone to listen to her, so she’ll definitely be okay at some point.
About her decision to join Aogiri, it was explained directly in the manga though, not in an extra? It’s in ch69:
I always loved Hina’s character because she took a lot of important decisions for the sake of her loved ones, and that theme kept up even when she got into Aogiri, following Eto’s “advice” only because she wanted to become stronger for everyone else. So now I’m glad that she’s thinking about herself for once.
She always was an interesting character to me, so it’s great she’s given more screentime and issues to come around. It’s even natural that it has to happen now when you think about it. After all:
joining Aogiri never was something that pleased her but she wanted to become strong so she joined them anyway
it probably took some time tfor her to adapt to her new life in Aogiri, but hopefully Ayato was there to help
then she saved Haise but got sent in Cochlea
she spent a year in Cochlea and Haise stopped visiting mid-time, which probably depressed and scared her
she almost got erased
but then Kaneki and Ayato (and the rest of :Re) saved her
So I’m glad Ishida is introducing now the issue that she doesn’t have to immediately accept Akira’s presence in Goat, even if Hina says herself that she knows Akira never did anything to her in particular.
We might get more insights into her character if, as I believe, her issue with Akira isn’t completely solved yet, so that will probably mean more focus given to Hina’s character, which is a great opportunity for both you and me :3
Thanks for passing by and sorry for the slight rambling, Anon! Have a nice day :))
Between the Garden/Oggai kids and all the homeless ghoul children someone better start a foster home by the end of TG:RE damn it…
Tfw Aogiri raised their children better than CCG’s
Yep CCG/V just sees them as a resource to exploit,
Where as a lot of ghoul parents I’m guessing (though there are still a few assholes) understand trying to take care of a child could put them in danger so they’d better be committed if they intend to take care of a kid.
So many ghoul parents fucking die for their kids.
Thisthisthisthis.
The CCG does indeed see ALL CHILDREN as resources to be exploited. Not simply the Garden children that they produce as tools, but every single orphan they take in and every single child that attends their schools at a lowered tuition rate.
Every. Single. Child. is nothing more than a resource to be exploited. A potential future Investigator for them to use. This is the reason children under the CCG receive no genuine psychological care, and are instead encouraged to foster every negative feeling. They need children to remain broken, so they grow up to be broken adults that will continue to perpetuate the system.
Mutsuki and Juuzou are the ultimate examples of this in the series, two deeply disturbed and damaged children that needed intense psychological care. Instead of giving them care, both were tossed into a Junior Academy known for housing “troubled cases”, and then pretty much abused. Those two did not need a facility training them to kill for the CCG, they needed intensive psychological care and a nurturing environment where they could heal from their traumas.
Instead, Mutsuki was encouraged to fester and descend further into insanity and violence. Used as an experiment, and further encouraged down a very dark and dangerous path. But Mutsuki, as a damaged and dangerous person, is USEFUL to them.
Likewise, Juuzou could have ended up the same. But he had a guardian angel in the form of Shinohara, who took a personal interest and invested time and energy into Juuzou’s case. He did what the CCG refused to do, and worked to teach Juuzou a better way to deal with his emotions and tried to instill in him what real kindness and love actually are. And Juuzou has blossomed through that connection and effort, and become so much more because someone actually CARED.
This is probably the key difference we’ll see between the Oggai and 0 Squad. Both are children raised to kill and take some enjoyment in doing a good job. But the 0 kids were exposed to positive influences, were loved by Arima as best he could within the narrow confines of their environment and have been given kindness by Hirako, Kaneki, Touka, and everyone else they deal with. Likewise, Hairu wasn’t as damaged as she could have been because she had Ui who took her on normal outings, and cared about her as a person.
And we see that so much in the ghoul children in the series. In spite of the hideous world that they are born into, so many ghoul parents do their best to give their children better lives. They love them, and try to protect them from the worst of their situations, and ultimately are willing to fight and die for them if necessary.
Hey Anon! Yes I’m proud of all my girls too 😀 and I love Ishida for giving me an entire chapter dedicated to the discussion between Akira and Touka.
And same! Honestly, I was very surprised about the children…
…especially because they’re different from how Ayato used to be (they don’t seem to be after getting stronger or getting revenge), and to be honest…
…I never saw Tatara as kind enough to accept young members into Aogiri without turning them into something useful. Then again, maybe he said nothing because Eto is the one who accepted them and, imagining Eto’s peculiar past in the 24th ward, maybe seeing poor orphans without a home is reason enough for her to simply take them in without expecting anything in return.
Or maybe those children were supposed to be turned into vengeful fighters once they’d grow older, but members like Hina, Ayato and Miza (and Shachi when he was still in Aogiri?) made sure not to involve them into anything too violent for as long as they could?
I don’t know but I’m curious about that fact, even if for the moment I’m glad they seem to be all cute and innocent. :3
Also, I agree about Akira and Touka: since Akira saved Seidou and still liked Kaneki and Amon despite them being OEGs, letting go of her hatred towards ghouls was only a matter of time and of finding the good interlocutor.
Personally, I think the fact that Touka immediately came clean is what did the trick, because it was just too easy for Akira to hate her with this fact alone, which is why she didn’t expect it when Touka just shrugged about her answer and carried on with what she wanted to show her.
Besides, Touka isn’t even asking of Akira not to hate her, it’s all about not hating other ghouls who have nothing to do with her parents’ deaths, something we all know Akira is capable of, thanks to her relationship with Amon, Kaneki and Seidou.
I agree Touka did all she could to fix her previous actions towards Mado Kureo, even if I don’t think that’s what she even intended on doing in the first place. I mean, she’s intelligent, she knows she’s never going to bring Kureo back and she doesn’t intend on apologizing since killing Mado saved Hina’s life and hers (just like she’s not asking of Akira not to hate her): it’s just about Akira accepting the rest of the ghoul world.
That’s why I love Touka, even if she might not realize that Hina still has personal issues about this specific topic.
I also really liked how she involved the children to make Akira realize that there was no need to keep on hating the entire ghoul population. 🙂 Sorry that I can’t recall if her first confrontation against Amon was near an elementary school though, even if it would be an interesting parallel!
Thanks for passing by Anon and for your thoughts as well! I hope mine made sense 🙂
Have a nice weekend!
Hey Anon, and yes, I can’t wait as well! 🙂
…Though it seems we’re shifting to the CCG’s side yet again in the next chapter, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we were to find out what Furuta’s new plan is about. That, or we could get a focus on the Qs next, that would be nice too. Someone needs to address Mutsuki’s issues after all.
You know, I’ve been thinking that maybe Touka and Kaneki won’t get to talk before the new arc comes by, if just because Furuta might do something before Kaneki is brave enough to go to Touka (since it seems Touka waits for him to come to her, since she’s the one who initially asked him for a talk in ch104).
I guess we will see 🙂 I’m already glad that Akira is probably going to be able to feel better about her situation, even if there is still Hina to take care of I guess.
Thanks for passing by and have a nice weekend Anon. ^_^
Same Anon! 😀 I’m so proud of her and of how much she grew up!
Honestly, she matured into such a fine woman that I just can’t wait to see how she’s supposed to fit in the rest of the story. …It’s still a silly idea of mine, but really, so far it seems she makes for a better leading figure than Kaneki when it comes to the coexistence between humans and ghouls. xD
I’m hoping she’ll help Hina now. And Kaneki of course. :3
Thanks for passing by Anon and have a nice weekend! ^^
A few months agoI wrote a postexplaining why Furuta not being a “real” Clown changed the dynamics of the Clowns’ gang in the plot and in relation to Kaneki’s character too, specifically because at the time I thought Itori and Nico were probably aware of Furuta’s real affiliation.
Quoting myself from the initial post for the following part, I have more to add on this point:
And the main interesting thing in that scene is that it is already giving possible hints that the Clowns (or just Itori and Uta) knew Souta wasn’t really “one of them”, because Itori says she already has an idea of who the culprit could be, just like she also says when Kaneki visits her again…
…which means that the Sunlit Garden and the secret around Furuta, Rize and the other children might be something she knew about for quite some time (considering what she then tells Kaneki about the “hidden truth”, like Kanou, it really makes me think she’s another character who knows about V/the Washuus and the Garden).
[…]
Then there is also what Nico told Souta about the OEK…
I think it is quite funny how Nico ended up telling Souta/Furuta who was actively looking for info on the OEK that they didn’t exist when they told Kaneki that the OEK was Eto who somehow seems to be the *only one*who knows who the OEK is in reality (since Furuta and so V and the CCG are at loss).
The way I see this, Nico could have fed Souta with false info about the person V is so afraid of by telling him that “such a person didn’t exist” while they made sure to make Eto (probably the only one knowing about the OEK) the target of Kaneki’s goal at that time by telling him that the OEK was Eto (maybe they thought that upon meeting with Eto, these two would talk like they are currently doing in :Re?).
In any case, Nico telling two opposite things to two different people (no matter what they thought was the truth) makes me think they were being careful about Souta and might have had a hint or two about his true affiliation, like Itori (and Uta) did.
The reason I’m making this post was that Nico joined Aogiri because they got interested in Yamori, but then as they said so well…
They were not considered as one of Aogiri even if they helped with many things (”cooperating” seems accurate indeed) and I think that’s because they told Aogiri precisely what their affiliation (the Clowns) was.
It doesn’t make sense otherwise, because Yamori was one of the high ranked ghouls of Aogiri’s organization, so Nico having access to a lot of info by following him around without even being a member of Aogiri sounds a bit… strange.
However, if they played frank and told Tatara “sorry not interested in your goals because my afilliation is the Clowns but I still want to help Yamori and so by proxy your organization”, it could have worked, especially since Yamori himself said that the Clowns used to be a big deal…
So yes, basically I’m suggesting that the Clowns and Aogiri might have had some kind of simple alliance just through Nico’s character back then, because Nico could help by getting the info needed or simply by helping Yamori (they’re probably strong and resourceful). It wouldn’t be impossible considering that by being V + the CCG’s scapegoat 10 years ago, I’m pretty sure the Clowns don’t favor the “twisted cage” much more than Eto and Aogiri so… “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” if just when it comes to trust in business.
I don’t think it was a long term alliance or anything though, the “partnership” probably ended as soon as Nico left Aogiri, but what’s important is that maybe Nico could have talked with Eto and Eto could have actually told them about the One-Eyed King’s identity because…
she probably knew the Clowns weren’t on V’s side at all after the Clowns’ annihilation,
maybe Nico had info about V she could use (since she wasn’t allied with Kanou at the time).
Back to what Nico told Kaneki in ch87: well, we readers know that what Nico told Kaneki about Eto in ch87 was a lie and they totally knew it was a lie because Itori (who heard Nico) told Kaneki…
“Take that story with a grain of salt.”
And also recently Furuta said about the OEK’s mystery…
“The info broker doesn’t know.”
So Nico (and Itori too) was aware that what they told to Kaneki at that time was a lie, which means that if they were so sure that Eto was not the OEKthat could be because they knew exactly who the OEK is in reality and it could be because Eto told them.
In any case they knew it wasn’t Eto when all of Aogiri thought their leader was the OEK and when we readers were fooled as well, so while I think it’s possible they could have figured it out alone (because they have a lot of info), I’d rather enjoy the idea that Eto told them because the Clowns probably dislike V as much as Eto does.
It could also be interesting to point out that it’s basically been 11 years since the Clowns’ annihilation and…
Which means that we have some kind of common timeline, except that when Eto was basically just getting started, the Clowns paid the price of gaining too much power and now it’s the other way around: Aogiri has entered possibly what could be its last battle against V + the CCG (and Eto is not sure she’ll live much longer) while the Clowns are collecting a lot of info and maybe have a plan involving Kaneki.
Thanks for reading all that, I know this might not appear to be anything relevant and you can wonder why we even care whether Nico was told by Eto or not (since it seems Kaneki figured it out with Eto’s last book), but considering all the death flags raised around Eto lately, we still need Kaneki to have some kind of big ally who could told him about V, the Garden and the Washuu family and I think the Clowns maybe could get that role.
And what better way to have Kaneki trust them if like him they also know who or what the One Eyed King is?
midnight-in-town 